Don’t *OPEN* that can of worms

Here is how I feel about openers and lines for the naturally reserved shy guy:

FAIL!!

Nice guys don’t have to finish last. They just need to have a good start. And its not in the form of openers (at least IMHO).

Leave the openers to the experienced natually social guys looking for quick lays with airheads.

Ok so I know the PUA community really places a lot of emphasis on openers and closes when approaching and sealing the deal with women that guys want to bang get to know better. The focus is almost *ALWAYS* on hotties. But if you’re a shy guy or beta, openers are a waste of time if you don’t even feel comfy or are really socially awkward. That’s like jumping from the pan into the fire. The root of the problem with most Betas or shy guys is simply they are socially inept when it comes to women and social settings in general. They lack confidence and proper body language and motions that make them attractive and to help them to get to their goal.

What you need to be focusing on FIRST and practicing is simple SOCIALIZING not openers and pick up lines. The more you do simple socializing with women the easier it becomes when you don’t have the stress of worrying about getting laid that moment. PUA’s IMO don’t seem to tell men this. They simply go for the gusto. Tell men to get cocky act like a jerk and the women will come running. Women want confident men – NOT JERKS. The problem is so many women today are clueless and they believe confidence *IS* jerky or cocky behavior. Not necessarily.

Lemme ask you – do you like short money or long money? Short money is quickly made and easily and quickly lost. Long money takes time to build and lasts longer b/c you mastered the skills to gain and maintain money for the long haul and not the quick, short and easy way. Men need to get back to basics – i.e. CONVERSATION. If you want to bang a bunch of airheads – then go short quick easy cocky route. But If you want to have intimacy and relationships with attractive women with some brain matter and self-worth, then focus on gaining long term skills that will not only help you with getting women on an intimate level but becoming better in social situations with women and people in general.

The best way to master socializing is to start socializing with women in general – UGMO women, moderately attractive women, hot women, your momma, that old lady down the street, the cute little girl on the bike – wait. no, don’t do that too many creepy pedo’s out there for you to get away with this, the clerk at the grocery store ALL WOMEN (except the cute little girl on the bicycle).

Nice guys/shy guys etc. its important to realize that a guy is not interested in a woman UNLESS he is trying to close the deal in some way that clearly suggests he is interested in getting to know her better as a person of intimate interest. A guy simply chatting you up, as far as I am concerned, is a guy simply just chatting you up. Nothing more and nothing less. Until you make *that move* its just a friendly conversation.

Too many nice/shy beta guys don’t understand this. They stare, glare and look but have a hard time making that move. And that is not really b/c they are afraid of rejection, they simply haven’t mastered the skills of being social and finding their comfort zone.

So how does one do that? – start talking to all kinds of women and getting comfortable just talking. Not trying to get laid, not trying to get numbers. JUST TALKING and practicing your body language and learning to read a woman’s body language. Then move into simply asking for what you want (once you have mastered this and now are speaking to girls of interest) – a phone number and/or an opportunity to meet up with her in a different setting sooner than later.

Often times body language for men is not discussed or is underrated. Its usually all about what you say. But a man who knows how to use proper body language doesn’t have to say much or have a repertoire of lines and openers.
There is nothing like a man in a social setting who is:

focusing his attentions on who he wants
slowly and comfortably approaches her
begins making regular SIMPLE conversation with said woman
is giving her intense eye contact
not fumbling, stuttering, looking around, being too cocky, too nervous.

Basically He’s solid and relaxed. He is not pressured, she is not pressured. Then he starts moving into the next step of showing intimate interest. He’s not going to spend all night or a lot of time chatting her up at the club or bar or whatever public setting they are in. He knows when to cut the convo short and ask for the digits. This peaks her interest b/.c he has not exhausted the conversation in a setting that is not really made for long talks or deep convo’s. So when he finally drops the hammer to get to the next level, its a reaaaal easy transition. That hammer could be something as simple as “I want to talk more with you but obviously this isn’t the place. Why don’t we exchange numbers and talk later or meet up later in a more convenient setting” Or something to that effect. The idea is he is keeping it short, simple and sweet but enough to draw her attention and keep her interested in wanting to talk with him later that night or the next day.

A nice guy can get there. But you first have to master the skill of simple conversation with ANY WOMAN. Before you know it, the hotties are just regular women who don’t always want to be a thought of as a means to an end if you know what I am saying.

Of course if you are a shy guy or a “beta” (ugh hate those terms) who typically feels uncomfortable cold approaching women in public places or social settings, then you will most likely think harder than the average Joe who has naturally mastered socializing. When you are thinking, you look like you’re thinking and she is thinking “this is the longest two minutes” of her life. Usually openers require that you THINK and you stay on a course. You are somewhat scripted. If something happens, and you get thrown off – then what? You jump to another opener? But when you learn to simply master the art of proper body language, normal conversation and reading women’s body language you don’t need openers. Just an ability to start and hold a conversation with a woman. And once the conversation has exhausted, then you close the deal by asking for her number or something in effect to getting to the next step.

Or you can take another route. By socializing and practicing on Women who don’t move you one way or another – (these can be family members, female buddies, women in social setting or professional settings) you can learn a lot about female body language and interacting with women in general. You get the basics so to speak without the pressures of rejection or wondering if you will get laid within the next hour or so with that girl.

The idea – don’t think “I gotta get laid”. The problem with tooo many nice or shy guys is they go straight for the bull’s-eye target without having the foundation or experience in dealing comfortably with women in a social setting. They don’t even have the basics down. Think – Practice. Practice with every woman that comes within your vicinity until it becomes second nature for you to interact comfortably with women on all levels. This will improve the relationships with all the women in your life (including family and friends). Let’s pray that your momma or sister doesn’t want to jump your bones by the time you finish mastering the skills needed to be an effective socializer with women *crossing fingers*. (ewww Neecy did you really go there? UGH!)

Moving on…

Learn how to be comfortable in the presence of women. Learn how to look at them and make eye contact. Learn their reciprocating body language (positive and negative). If the ugmos don’t even respond to you in favor you know you have more work to do.

Most men who are not getting laid or having success with women simply bull’s-eye the girl out of his league (but hasn’t yet mastered the ability to gain or keep even the most undesirable woman’s attention). He fails time after time and suddenly his confidence level tanks.

by now you have mastered your comfort zone, you know how to stand, use your voice, hands, eyes and stance. You’ve learned *basic* female body language from the undesirables or from other women in your life who you are not trying to sleep with. You are simply chill talking to the girl of your dreams b/c you talked to so many women on so many different levels they all start to look the same in the sense that you don’t feel the slight bit nervous talking to a hottie or girl of interest than you would an UGMO, your sister, the old lady down the street, the grocery store clerk, the cute cashier, etc.. And this will give you the confidence to approach ANY woman of interest.

If you are not getting laid currently, then what more have you got to lose by simply putting into practice socializing with a bunch of women who can be your Ginuea pigs? Its like interviewing . If you are out of work (think if you are not getting laid), the best thing anyone can do is interview with all kinds of companies (or socializing with all kinds of women).

Some people sit and read all these books on interviewing waiting for the perfect interview with the perfect job opportunity with the perfect company. And then what happens? – they get the interview (which wasn’t easy to get) and then blow it b/c they didn’t have enough practice INTERACTING in interviews. Some of the best jobs I got, I got b/c I FIRST spent time interviewing with all kinds of companies and jobs. If I got a call for an interview, instead of saying “I don’t even want to work for that company” I went anyway to gain experience in interviewing effectively. I found if I couldn’t get a call back from some rinky dink undesirable company, I knew I needed to switch things up and keep focusing on making myself and my qualifications more desirable to snag the better job with the better company. Same thing applies with a shy reserved Beta guy trying to learn how to become more socially comfortable around women and with women he is interested in.

Personally, I feel that telling shy or reserved guys to focus on openers and such is a waste – but closes are IMPORTANT. So how do you close something you never opened? Well actually you are opening, but not with some contrived lines, but rather opening with CONVERSATION that leads directly into you showing interest through other forms of body language. I think that men and the use of body language is very underrated. A man’s eyes, stance, motions can relay so many attractive or unattractive things. You can be saying all the right things, but your body language could be conflicting and make you unattractive.

Too many times men are simply focused on talking their way to a woman and that is so played out. Its time to start amping up the body language and using simple conversation techniques instead of lines and openers. . Practice this as opposed to “openers” and lines and see what success you have with women. To me, the best guy out of the bunch is the guy who is simply getting to his goal using the most effective efficient non-threatening means possible – body language, eyes, motions and basic short to- the- point conversation.

Next up (MARELLUS) female body language and “come hither” cues!!

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119 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. Andrew Medina
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 02:38:10

    Even in LTR’s I’ll use canned materials (like openers, routines, etc…..). The trick is to have more than just that at your disposal. The canned materials are great for the shy types because they usually BLANK THE FUCK OUT, when talking to women who are attractive. As they get used to being around beautiful women they’ll stop blanking out, thus reducing their need to rely on canned material.

    Canned material is a tool just like anything else.

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    • Neecy
      Sep 15, 2011 @ 17:24:04

      I think canned routines work for experienced guys who are naturally able to socialize with women and people.

      For some reason i think it would be best when a socially awkward guy who is trying to move into more comfortable social engaging to practice natural conversation FIRST with women before trying canned openers and pick-ups b/c it will not come off as natural. A guy who is already socially comfy can play up the canned routines more naturally without effort and make it sound less scripted. But a newbie to social interaction with women may screw them up and come off like he is trying too hard.

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      • Liza207
        Sep 16, 2011 @ 07:39:08

        I forgot to say yesterday that advising shy guys to go out and interact with women as much as possible to get comfortable is the best advice for them. Doing this over a long period will definitely help them overcome their social anxiety and social ineptness; this is the only way, in my opinion. They just have to put themselves out there as often as they can until it is easy breezy and it will be. I use to have social anxiety myself and this is how I overcame it.

        I have heard of people taking Improv classes to become better at conversation in social situations, and it has proven to be very affective for those who have taken them.

        I have a hard time making and maintaining eye contact with strangers (hot guys) and I once read on Susan Walsh’s blog: Hooking Up Smart, that an effective way to overcome this is when you’re out and about just look at strangers eyes but don’t overdo it or it becomes a kind of creepy. I find that decent guys like to make eye contact before approaching and since I have trouble in this department, I do not get the decent guys approaching me.

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  2. Zorro
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 06:37:36

    Examples of “canned material”:

    The Pledge of Allegiance
    Othello
    The Importance of Being Ernest
    “Two Jews walk into a bar…” (all jokes)

    Canned material is simply a set structure that is remembered rather than spontaneously invented. It is not necessarily manipulative or phony. But it could be.

    The idea – don’t think “I gotta get laid”. TRUE!

    All PUA books I have read (and a few self-help psych books) say the same thing. It’s called being attached to outcomes, and when a person is devoted to an end result of a spontaneous social interactions, they project their agenda without knowing it. This really creeps women out, because women are extraordinarily adept at picking up non-spoken *vibes* and agendas. If you’re trying to sell something to a woman and you’re not telling her you’re actually trying to sell something, she’ll know it in 15 seconds and she’ll bolt. A guy who finds a woman attractive and thinks she would be a great sex partner is doomed. Women can tell when men are horny for them because women are walking Star Trek Tricorders that detect every fucking molecule of physical and emotional thought in other people. So whenever a guy thinks “I gotta get laid,” every woman around him will write him off as a loaded cock looking for nothing but a moist hole (sorry for the imagery), but not a man who is looking for a total, complete woman with all the trimmings.

    So…agreed!

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    • Liza207
      Sep 15, 2011 @ 07:33:18

      “It’s called being attached to outcomes, and when a person is devoted to an end result of a spontaneous social interactions, they project their agenda without knowing it.”

      I find that many beta males are excessively attached to the outcome of whether a woman they find attractive will be receptive to their advances. They tend to over rationalize the situation because they fear being rejected or being humiliated in asocial settlings (I totally understand this, some woman can be brutal but once a guy learns to pick up on clear cues of interest from a woman they won’t get their asses handed to them).

      They definitely are projecting their agenda in big red flashing lights
      Moreover, it is creepy and off-putting–desperation is just not hot or sexy.

      “Women can tell when men are horny for them because women are walking Star Trek Tricorders that detect every fucking molecule of physical and emotional thought in other people.”

      Yep. As women, we are extremely empathetic and intuitive and we can see a man’s true intentions a miles away. Therefore, men who think that they are manipulating us need to think again. We do what we do because WE want to.

      In addition, high quality women do not fall for negs and one-liner skits they want real sincere interactions. Only chicken heads go for that but if that is your favor then by means go for it, guys.

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      • Zorro
        Sep 15, 2011 @ 10:29:29

        “Only chicken heads go for that…”

        Interesting observation. In the book, Why Women Have Sex, by Dr. David M. Buss and Dr. Cynthia Meston, it was noted that women sometimes play “blonde” (not stupid, but a little ditzy) in order to make themselves more approachable. Men have a tremendous fear of rejection (it is humiliating) and are often afraid of approaching women. So women may act uncharacteristically submissive, ditzy or *girly helpless* in order for men to feel more comfortable in associating with them.

        Women (not all, but many) learn how easily men can be manipulated by a woman’s demeanor.

        It is a fact of life: the woman is the predator, and the man is the prey. If you doubt it, read The Manipulated Man by Esther Vilar.

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        • Liza207
          Sep 15, 2011 @ 11:50:25

          I know there are smart females who sometimes play “dumb” in order to get the interest of men. But those females are usually very young (teens and twenties), I know because I use to do the same thing at that age. I would dumb it up and ditz it up so not to intimidate. But, now, as a mature woman I no longer feel the need to resort to such tactics to secure a man, but I also know that men are not interested in a woman’s smarts for the most part, so I don’t play up my smarts but nor do I down play them.

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      • Neecy
        Sep 15, 2011 @ 17:52:27

        In addition, high quality women do not fall for negs and one-liner skits they want real sincere interactions. Only chicken heads go for that but if that is your favor then by means go for it, guys.

        EXACTLY Liza. Now if the guy is obviously joking and being obvious that he is negging and making fun of that then its all in good fun. But the fact is guys who consciously neg women IMO do it b/c they are not on the level of the woman and are insecure. What do insecure people do? Try to make others feel insecure so they are somehow on the same level. A guy who negs is trying to take the easy route to get a woman by making her feel somewhat insecure. That’s not real game nor do healthy real men need to do this to make a woman desire him and see him as a masculine male.

        Quality attractive women would never fall for negs b/c it IMO makes the guy come off as insecure and obviously trying too hard to prove something. In fact a completely secure guy can complement a woman and leave it at that. Obviously if its some immature airhead or just a woman of low caliber she would turn a man complimenting her into some big ordeal and suddenly label him some herb or beta.

        A healthy mature woman can and does love male attention AND loves receiving compliments from men. A quality mature woman will not take a man’s compliments and use that against him.

        Healthy men are able to create and build sexual tension the natural way – through body language, eye contact, simple flirting, compliments and having a charming demeanor etc.

        As you said chicken heads, airheads and low caliber women go for the jerk overly cocky asshole game.

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        • Liza207
          Sep 16, 2011 @ 07:50:01

          “A guy who negs is trying to take the easy route to get a woman by making her feel somewhat insecure. That’s not real game nor do healthy real men need to do this to make a woman desire him and see him as a masculine male.”

          —-
          You are so right, Neecy. They are attempting to knock a woman (usually very attractive women) down a few pegs because they see her as being above them in the first place, so by negging her they are lowering her to bring her down to their level. These guys are usually deeply insecure and manipulative.

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          • Neecy
            Sep 16, 2011 @ 08:49:27

            YES. That is why I encourage guys to develop better social skills and understanding that a masculine man does not need to take a woman down a peg or two to get what he wants. In fact, any attractive woman cut from a decent cloth will always find a charming man irresistible b/c he knows how to make her feel good.

            What kind of woman wants to be with a man that makes her feel bad and insecure? Low caliber insecure (albiet hot) air heads who go for all that drama and roller cosater rides with men who treat them like crap.

            Like i said, there is a certain segment of women in which negging triggers positive responses – these women may be attractive but normally have issues in the first place. Goes back to the Hot crazy chicks so many men seek out. If a man is looking for quick easy lays with those kinds of women then i can see that working quite well. But it won’t work on decent attractive girls who know their worth.

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          • Emma the Emo
            Sep 16, 2011 @ 09:18:02

            I don’t know, I always thought negs were a way to knock down a woman who is too full of herself, not to soothe your own insecure ego. You don’t use them if the girl is already feeling on your own level or below, especially if she is already in a relationship with you. A neg is not an insult. It can also be a way to playfully tease someone. A woman with a robust ego and enough confidence will not be offended by a neg, just amused (if it’s a well-done neg and not an insult)

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            • Neecy
              Sep 16, 2011 @ 09:27:26

              Emma,

              I do think negs in the playful manner are fun and can break the ice if the guy is being obvious and playful with an attractive girl. But a lot of guys are not using negs in that way or the way you describe. They are using it on every woman and taking a one size fits all approach to it. Not only that they are negging to place themselves above the woman in some fashion – that to me says he is insecure.

              If a man can separate the times when negging may be necessary for a woman who is being really bitchy and full of herself I don’t see a problem. But often times inexperienced men who are trying too hard to prove something neg attractive woman he simply feels is way out of his league and thus negs her for no other reason than to bring her down to his level b/c he is insecure.

              Most men who neg don’t really IMO simply use it on bitchy full of themselves women. It seems to be a way of doing for attractive women no matter how positive or negative her personality is. I don’t agree with this b/c not all attractive women are full of themselves. The fact is some guys instead of working on their insecurity issues choose to neg as the easy way out.

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              • Liza207
                Sep 16, 2011 @ 09:47:11

                Precisely.

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              • Firepower
                Sep 16, 2011 @ 11:05:40

                hot girls are the nicest, humblest of creatures
                guys who neg are jerks
                and the women who fall for negs are sick

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                • Neecy
                  Sep 16, 2011 @ 17:55:45

                  FP i agree. i do think that there are a lot of nice attractive/hot women out there who don’t deserve to be negged or put down or who don’t need negs b/c they are very humble and understand what guys go through in the dating/mating game, when it comes to building up the courage to talk to an attractive woman.

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    • Neecy
      Sep 15, 2011 @ 17:36:06

      Zorro,

      You hit it on the head. A lot of times the good/shy guy is automatically thinking “i need to leave with her number” or “I really want to have sex or intimacy with her” and they go into the situation with that mindset and the girl can sniff it out right away and becomes turned off. I think any guy should go into trying to get a girl with the mindset of not trying to get the girl (if that makes sense). If he simply focuses on socializing and having a casual conversation, both he and she are relaxed. If there is attraction it will be *INSTANT* and he will know based on her body language and response. Then he can easily close with much more success.

      Even if women know that some guys are talking to her to ultimately get her number, they don’t want to feel like he is some desperate horn dog who is trying to hit up any attractive girl and see who’s going to bite.

      That is why i suggest for the more reserved shy and laid back socially awkward guys to simply relax and learn to have a casual conversation with women FIRST – minus the canned openers and pick-ups. But pickup lines and canned openers come off as scripted to the average guy who hasn’t even mastered social interactions with women comfortably. Women can sense when a man is up to no good. And as Liza said, most men are not manipulating women. Its women who choose to either play the game or not. Especially attractive women who are constantly hit on by various men. What most normal women want is a guy who can flirt but who will not make her feel like she is a means to a quick end (sex).

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      • Zorro
        Sep 15, 2011 @ 17:50:15

        Attachment to outcomes was always a problem for me until I learned that it is a very bad habit, not only in dating but negotiating, business, socialization, etc. Ironically, it was a DVD put out by a famous pickup artist, as well as a self-help book I read last year, that said attachment to outcomes will ruin your life. So I have made it a personal goal to rise above the temptation.

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        • Neecy
          Sep 15, 2011 @ 17:59:58

          Zorro,

          I really like that. I think this is a good practice to apply to all areas in ones life. Especially in my career where I do sales. i find I am most likely to close a deal when I am not looking or sounding as if I want to close a deal. In sales they say “people do business with those they like”. A person likes you if you know how to make them feel as if they are not a means to an end – EVEN if they know deep down you do want something from them, they don’t want to *FEEL* like that. make sense?

          Same with job interviewing. All employers interviewing know that said interviewee wants the job. But they don’t want to feel like someone is desperate for a job. its best to interview as if you don’t need the job but rather want it. And if you don’t get it, cool there are other opportunities out there. Same goes for ANYTHING in life. Often times people can vibe desperation and it really turns people of in any situation.

          This is why its important for socially awkward guys looking to change and be more comfy in interacting with women to not follow the general PUA style of pick ups and openers IMO – b/c it doesn’t allow him to develop necessary social skills in simply holding a casual conversation with a woman he’s interested in without feeling too anxious to get something out of it. His anxiousness usually will show, she reads this and it comes off as desperate.

          GREAT ADVICE i will certainly put it to use in my day to day life 🙂

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          • Zorro
            Sep 16, 2011 @ 11:19:13

            I really don’t want to get into the finer calculus of this, but I am an introvert. There are books about introverted personalities. I am one of them.

            “This is why its important for socially awkward guys looking to change and be more comfy in interacting with women to not follow the general PUA style of pick ups and openers IMO…”

            I am not going to take issue with your perspective. A person sees the world the way they do. You do. I do.

            But as an introvert, I have very little use for other people. I am not shy. I could do a standup routine on open mike night at a comedy club. But when people talk about other people who don’t open up like most people do (85% of humans are extroverts, and 15% are introverts), it leaves me at a disadvantage. I need a structure to follow in order to associate with the rest of humanity. PUA stuff helps me a lot. I keeps me from making stupid mistakes. I am not wired like most people. I realize PUAs can come off like predators, but people like me live in a shell that we need to come out of. And the PUA community has helped me learn how to associate with women that I never knew how to before.

            I am a good person. But I am neurologically afraid of associating with other people. Yes, there are stupid assholes who *game* people for nefarious reasons. I am not one of them.

            I need to know how to open doors. And the PUA crowd has helped me.

            Introvert Power: Why Your Inner Life is Your Hidden Strengh by Laurie Ledgoe, Ph.D.

            The Introvert Advantage: How to Thrive in an Extrovert World by Marti Olsen Laney, Psy.D.

            The Highly Sensitive Person, by Elaine N. Aron, Ph.D.

            Starting points. There are lots of people out there who struggle to deal with other people.

            I’m one.

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            • Liza207
              Sep 16, 2011 @ 11:53:23

              Zorro, I am also an introvert so I can totally relate to having a hard time dealing with people. I do prefer to be alone or left alone but I have learned how to function well in social situations by just forcing myself to go out and socialize and just meet people. Nevertheless, since I am an introvert social situations can be very draining for me, so after a while I have to have time alone to regenerate.

              I have never researched the number of adult who were introverts. I guess I always assumed that the major of the population were introverted and that the extroverts were a select few. However, I was always aware that we lived in an extroverted world because that is the ideal personality type that most of us were encouraged to emulate. Well, now, I know.

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            • Andrew Medina
              Sep 16, 2011 @ 12:20:37

              That’s why I got a good vibe from you.

              I’m an introvert too. The PUA stuff is pretty good across the board, I’m thinking Neecy needs to read the Mystery Method to really understand how powerful/good PUA really is for us. Mystery was/is an introvert (and really emotionally healthy) too.

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              • Zorro
                Sep 16, 2011 @ 12:23:24

                The Mystery Method is awesome, and Magic Bullets has helped me tremendously to come out of my shell.

                It’s not all predatory swill. Some of it is really helpful to decent men! And, yes, Mystery is also an introvert who was afraid of women, as I was.

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            • Neecy
              Sep 16, 2011 @ 18:04:04

              Zorro, Andrew i hope I am not coming off as putting down shy or introverted people. I guess as a very extroverted person i didn’t assume that there are just simply people out there who really need help in overcoming their social awkwardness or anxieties. I’m sorry for coming off as superior or something.

              I was just really saying that I haven’t seen a lot of talk or encouragement around building up stronger social interactions with women by simply practicing how to be more SOCIAL and not always looking for the end goal – getting a girl in bed or just getting a girl. i think that puts a lot of pressure on a socially inept guy who has not even developed the basic skills to be comfortable in social situations and having casual conversations. I think there are steps and it seems that some PUA’s skip over the most basic ones. I could be wrong since I have yet to read any PUA books. I just feel that pick-up lines and openers should be avoided by introverted guys until they have mastered the basics of overcoming anxiety in social interactions by simply learning how to SOCIALIZE comfortably with women without feeling the pressure to have an outcome.

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            • bob
              Sep 25, 2011 @ 11:57:12

              Holy Cow! This seems to explain a lot!

              I too am generally OK being alone, even though I do want companionship and sex.

              I can preform fine at musical open mikes – playing guitar and singing, even though I *know* that my singing is at best mediocre (though my guitar playing is better than average for those venues) – but put me in front of a single attractive woman and I freeze up and/or get stupid.

              I have ordered 2 of the introversion books.

              I also ordered the Mystery Method book, though I generally am (now) not looking to bed hot airheads, but am looking for a quality woman.

              I’m not looking to fool women into thinking I’m some sort of alpha that I am not, but I clearly need help on the socializing side, which Neecy has advocated so ably and clearly.

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              • Neecy
                Sep 26, 2011 @ 11:48:37

                Hi Bob!

                you said:

                I’m not looking to fool women into thinking I’m some sort of alpha that I am not, but I clearly need help on the socializing side,

                This is the main thing – you should not have to feel like you have to morph into some charismatic alpha stud to win women over. I feel the game and PUA sites really send this message across to guys who are not naturally this way. Not every man was born to be and Alpha or a Beta so to speak. If all men were one way this world would not be what it is now. We need variety and women ALSO like variety. Not all women want some Alpha type personification. Some like more laid back easy going guys.

                I think the key is socializing and confidence are universal benefits ANYONE should seek to gain or have. Its just better for you over a wide variety of things you will come across in your life – not just picking up women and relationships. It will help you in work, public and social settings to feel more comfortable and less anxious and lowers your anxiety and/or fear of interacting with strangers or people you don’t know very well.

                To me a normal and HEALTHY male has traits of both an alpha and beta. Being all or too much of either IMO is not what MOST women want. They want a nice balance. Trying to turn naturally reserved socially inept guys into Alphas IMO is taking away part of who he is as a person. I believe everyone should improve if things are not working, but simply changing who you are is not necessary if you pick up the right traits to add in your personality to make you more successful.

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      • Marellus
        Sep 15, 2011 @ 18:13:57

        … on the other hand it’s very easy to talk to women that you don’t feel an attraction to. You can make jokes and be yourself, and the funny thing is that you can spark attraction within these women then. But when you really feel attracted/horny for a woman you start making permutations.

        And the prime permutation you’ll make, if you’re reasonably smart, is that she’s onto your intentions. So the best way to handle this, is to hide your intentions and try to be normal. After all, this worked on the girls that you didn’t feel attracted to.

        But this means maintaining a front, and sooner or later you realize that it’s gonna crack. You’ll either give yourself away by sheer ineptitude/desperation, or she will call your bluff, and then you’re standing in front of her with your pants down, and her laughing at you.

        So you try reading signals from her. Hoping for something that gives a hint of success. And where you would expect these signals to be as reliable and powerful as science, what you’re actually getting is a lot chaos that coalesces into an artwork.

        And not many of us are good artists. And art can have a multitude of meanings.

        So with this in mind, you know you’re in a weak position. And some guys just say to hell with it, and try their luck … and they get blown off most of the time … other guys never try. They made the permutations, ran a risk/reward analysis … and simply withdrew …

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        • Neecy
          Sep 16, 2011 @ 07:49:57

          Marellus,

          Yes ITA that shy reserved socially inept males should start talking to women they don’t necessarily find attractive. that way if he messes up or does or says something crazy, he won’t feel completely traumatized b/c he doesn’t really want anything from the girl.

          Women are women and we all typically react in certain ways when interacting with men, and vice versa. So even a woman you are not attracted to can help you out tremedously when it comes to practicing and learning female cues and body language.

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  3. Marellus
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 06:40:08

    Thanks Neecy. Keep it coming.

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  4. Liza207
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 08:55:15

    Neecy, well done. That is what women who are good wife and girlfriend material want–a man that is confident and sincere. They do not want a jerk or an egotistical cad. These guys may be appealing at first because they exude a ridiculous amount of self-confidence it is almost ridiculous but as you get know them they can be really irritating and annoying from my experience. I remember a couple of years ago I met this really hot sexy guy (Like Neecy I hate using the term “Alpha” but by definition this guy was exactly that) with all the trimmings (tall, dark and handsome and a very successful businessman) and an ego the size of Texas. In addition, I will never forget the way he approached me the first time we met in Vegas, but we were both from the East Coast but lived in different states but we were close. He walked right up to me and said, “Hi baby” I was like this guy has a lot of nerves but he was so goddamn sexy and so sure of himself I could not resist him. And I was on an emotional rollercoaster for a year.

    This guy was very use to getting what he wanted from most women but I wanted to tame him (big mistake on my part), so I made it hard for to get he wanted and I don’t think he ever experienced that with any woman before. I think it intrigued him at first and he saw me as a challenge but what I really wanted was for him was to see me as a serious potential mate– not just a pump and dump like the other women before me. I am a bit alpha myself so there was a bit head butting that went on. I fused to give it up and he fused to give me a commitment until got what he wanted. After putting each other through it for a year, we just went our separate ways, but I do have the regret of not sleeping with him, though, because I know that the sex would have been absolutely ridiculous—the chemistry between us was the strongest I ever felt with any guy before or after him. If things had worked out with us, I don’t know if I could put up with his over inflated ego day in day and out. Moreover, I probably would never really have him all to myself with all the women coming at him all of the time—partly due to him once being featured in Playgirl Magazine.

    Betas are all right with me–less drama and ego to deal with.

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    • Marellus
      Sep 15, 2011 @ 09:37:32

      I fused to give it up and he fused to give me a commitment until got what he wanted.

      Now I’ve got to know what kind of fusion we’re talking about here Liza. I’ve got my physics textbook ready, and I’ve drunk my Red Bulls, and I’ve put a picture of J Robert Oppenheimer on my wall … now go ahead and smite me with thine theories and terminology !!!! 😀

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      • Liza207
        Sep 15, 2011 @ 09:51:55

        I meant: refused. Oopsy.

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        • Liza207
          Sep 15, 2011 @ 11:02:16

          I also want to add, in my twenties I use to take great pleasure in going out with hot egotistical guys just to knock them down a few notches. When I first meet them I am attracted to their hotness but once I get wind of how obnoxiously egotistical they were I would lose interest in them (and sex with definitely out of the question) but would only remain around them to knock them down a few pegs. How? I would play hard to get (not returning calls right away, tell them that I was busy when they wanted to see me and so on). They just could not believe a woman was acting that way towards them being that they had other women falling at their feet all of the time. They would start thinking I was “the one” because I was so “different” from the others. And I would just move on.

          These guys were self-centered, selfish and egotistical jerks that didn’t deserve love from any woman and I definitely was not about to them give any. And besides, I would not be able to deal with them anyway. I will admit it was childish (maybe even sociopathic) but I was in my early to mid-twenties at the time.

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          • Marellus
            Sep 15, 2011 @ 12:22:50

            … oh bloody hell … I can’t find this anywhere in my physics textbook 😦 Now Liza, give me some more hints. I like this physics textbook. Everything worth knowing is in this textbook. It has even helped me through a lot of scary times, (and one day one of them cockroaches will survive and attest to this). Now I know you’ve given up on me, but please try again …

            So Liza … take a deep breath … and another one … flex your fingers … think of the periodic movement of heavenly bodies 😀 … and those inimitable laws of attraction between such bodies … quantified in the most elegant of mathematical inequalities … and somewhere in all these arcane symbols of exponentials, fractions and divisions that describes this attraction … there is a constant … always a constant …

            What is this constant ? Please do tell me … or else … I’m gonna read … ummmm …. oh don’t bother … just know that you won’t be able to smite me with cunning arguments then !!! 😀

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            • Liza207
              Sep 15, 2011 @ 12:46:44

              LOL! No, there will be no smiting from me with cunning arguments. But I have this, Marellus–there is absolutely no way human beings can “fuse” or “be fused”– and that is my pseudo-scientific explanation. Now, did that do it for ya. 😉

              By the way, I am the worst when it comes to typing (slow as hell, no matter how much I’ve practiced). I just wish my fingers were able to move as fast as my thought process, then maybe I wouldn’t leave words in my sentences as they are being written.

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      • Neecy
        Sep 15, 2011 @ 18:16:42

        LMAO MARELLUS! Yeah that whole “fused” thing made me chuckle cause she did it twice. LOL (love ya Liza!!! 😉

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    • Neecy
      Sep 15, 2011 @ 18:15:23

      Liza,

      Those guys are very intriguing but not for LTR’s. I get approached ever so often by these types and as tempting as they are I simply prefer to avoid all the drama that is going to come with being with them and sleeping with them. I’m a big believer in Oxytocin screwing up a woman if she chooses the wrong man to lay with. Can you imagine how it would have been if you had slept with him? the sex would have been good and you would have had an orgasm? OH GOD it would have taken you FOREVER to get over him!LOL

      Its hard b/c they do bring out the very best in you in terms of intense attraction, but usually that is only temporary once you get to see how these guys work on a regular basis. After awhile all that over cockiness becomes old, tired and worn out. You start wanting to be with someone who has more balance of normal confidence and masculinity with an ability to be yielding when he needs to be. Alpha guys are usually not very yielding to the women in their lives. They have to constantly be “on”. Some women like all that constant drama but most don’t want to live like this daily with a man.

      I have always preferred laid back easy going guys – ALWAYS. I look back at all my b/f’s and all my fondest most enjoyable memories were with the ones who were more “Beta” and easy going yet still confident and able to bring out the best in me. Even the popular football player I dated in college was very easy going and laid back on a day to day basis (although he turned out to be a cheater).

      Yes I completely understand what you did and why you chose to hold off from sex with him. Most quality women do want to be taken seriously as long term mates and for the longest the golden rule was that if you want a man to stick around you need to hold off from sex and allow him to get to know you on a deeper level first. To PROVE his worth of your body. But we already know there are more than a fair share of women willing to completely do ANYTHING to get and keep a man they want:
      Sex in the first hour of meeting him,

      blow jobs in bathroom stall,

      buying him things

      going out of their way to desperately seek his approval.

      Many old school women do believe that holding out from sex will make a guy commit or stick around. That is how it was years ago. But these days are so different I don’t even know what to do or think anymore. *sigh*

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      • Liza207
        Sep 16, 2011 @ 07:03:28

        “I’m a big believer in Oxytocin screwing up a woman if she chooses the wrong man to lay with. Can you imagine how it would have been if you had slept with him? the sex would have been good and you would have had an orgasm? OH GOD it would have taken you FOREVER to get over him!LOL”

        LOL! Yes, Neecy, I would have had an absolutely mind-blowing orgasm (guaranteed) and I would have been doomed. Moreover, that is exactly what I wanted to avoid because I know I cannot handle casual encounters. I am just not wired that way (most women are not). I didn’t even have sex with the guy and I’m still talking about him, so just imagine if I had. Oh, my god, what an emotional mess I would have been behind that experience.

        And don’t think I didn’t try to look him up on Facebook (awful, right?). However, I learned my lesson and I am done.

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        • Neecy
          Sep 16, 2011 @ 09:15:55

          Liza it happens to the best of women. And b/c you are a solid woman from the get go, it enabled you to not further put yourself in emotional disarray by sleeping with him. Its almost like you knew deep down what would happen so you avoided it although you really had an intense desire for this guy.

          I go through this ALL THE TIME. I meet guys who really get my juices flowing initially, but common sense always kicks in and asks me if the temporary gains will be worth the long term stress of dealing with and sleeping with such guys. And for me its not worth it. I also believe in the idea that anytime you feel that good about someone or something so soon, its too good to be true. I’m not saying you shouldn’t be initially attracted to someone, but if they make you feel that good, its never a good thing for the LONG term. There should be a nice balance of positive emotions – not an overabundance.

          There is nothing like growing into an intense desire for someone. One that gets better and better as you get to know them and see how much more they become attractive over time based on what they do and how they treat you. Anytime you have such a MAD rush of desire and sexual tension over someone, it will usually fizzle out fairly quickly down the line. Like I said in simple casual sexual interactions this is okay but not for long term.

          That is what separates the average chick today from the exception chicks with common sense. We have the same desires as the insecure needy chick, but we realize our weakness for a said guy and choose not to further put ourselves in emotional and physical disarray.

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      • Liza207
        Sep 16, 2011 @ 10:57:26

        Even the popular football player I dated in college was very easy going and laid back on a day to day basis (although he turned out to be a cheater).

        I hope you gave this jerk a piece of your mind. Where is this idiot now?

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        • Neecy
          Sep 16, 2011 @ 17:40:20

          Nope. I just moved on with my life. He played in the league for a few years but last i checked he wasn’t playing anymore.

          As with all things in my life, i always ask God if what I am doing is the right thing before I make a big decision and surely the truth came out that he had two children with two different women. I was obviously hurt and upset and felt betrayed. But the thing that killed him the most was, I didn’t scream yell or anything. I just ended it and moved on with my life.

          But i will say he could have been major alpha but instead was very laid back, easy going and treated me fairly well during the two years we were together.

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  5. Liza207
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 09:11:15

    I love it when guys give sincere compliments to women as long as they keep it above the neck. I mean, no mentions of body parts. If you think a woman his beautiful eyes, skin, hair (or hairstyle) and so on, then comment on that. If she is wearing a nice outfit or great shoes (we love our shoes)–compliment that. Note: commenting on a woman’s lips can be a bit stretchy so stay away from that.

    The whole idea is to be sincere that way you are not struggling to remember lines that don’t sound natural or sincere–quality women know B.S. when it is being said to them.

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    • Emma the Emo
      Sep 15, 2011 @ 09:32:35

      What if he told you you had a great nose? 😀

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    • Neecy
      Sep 15, 2011 @ 18:21:47

      Liza,

      Thank you! What is this with guys who compliment women are losers and betas and desperate? Come on! In fact, I think a true and real man would love to openly compliment a woman. Of course there are some low caliber women out there who can’t take a compliment without turning it into some big ordeal (b/c they are already insecure), but If a guy cannot simply compliment a woman b/c he fears being labled a herb or beta then I hate to see the way we are going.

      A healthy woman LOOOVES compliments from men. As you said, as long as they keep it clean and sincere what’s the problem?

      I will always respond positivley to a man who pays me a sincere compliment and keeps it clean. I ignore men who make nasty or vulgar “compliments”.

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      • Liza207
        Sep 16, 2011 @ 07:58:50

        Yes, Neecy. There are women who are uncomfortable with compliments due to their insecurities and negative feelings they harbor about themselves. Their negative reactions have very little to do with the guy, especially if he was being respectful and sincere. However, they should avoid over complimenting and fawning–that is a big no-no.

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        • Neecy
          Sep 16, 2011 @ 09:01:39

          Yep. There is a fine line a man should not cross when complimenting a woman. Going overboard with the compliments and fawning is really bad. Simple causal remarks about something he finds nice or attractive about you, what you are wearing, how you smell is all that is needed and wanted in intial stages of casual contact. Even in relationships I think that men should compliment SPARINGLY but use body langiuage to show positive reaction to how she looks or smells etc. Women want to be caught off guard when her man openly compliments her. That way when he does it sparingly she knows he really means it.

          A man in a relationship can even compliment his woman with body language like: If she smells good, instead of saying ” you smell good” maybe stick his nose into her neck and take a deep breath inward and make a positive face that shows he really likes how she smells. Or if she is wearing an outfit that looks good, instead of saying “you look really good in that dress” maybe take a step back and look her up and down and then nod his head in a yes fashion with a slight smirk, then push her forward and keep walking.

          *I hope my future baby daddy finds this and is reading and taking notes*

          LOL!!

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          • Liza207
            Sep 16, 2011 @ 09:17:24

            A man in a relationship can even compliment his woman with body language like: If she smells good, instead of saying ” you smell good” maybe stick his nose into her neck and take a deep breath inward and make a positive face that shows he really likes how she smells. Or if she is wearing an outfit that looks good, instead of saying “you look really good in that dress” maybe take a step back and look her up and down and then nod his head in a yes fashion with a slight smirk, then push her forward and keep walking.


            This is hot.

            *I hope my future baby daddy finds this and is reading and taking notes*

            Yes, I hope he is reading and is keeping this in his mental roledex.

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  6. Emma the Emo
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 09:27:33

    You’re right, that stuff takes practice. It’s something I tried practicing even though I’m not a man, because being nervous when talking to crowds/new people/hot people is not fun. I feel bad for guys, because they are the ones who are supposed to approach and not us girls. But it can be learned and even a very socially inept person can get pretty good, unless they have a bad social anxiety disorder.
    Also, I wonder why women can tell if a guy is trying to get in their pants, and being very outcome-dependent. Is it really that hard to tell, unless you’re very inexperienced? I was bad at detecting it when I was 13-16. But then learned what meant what.

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    • Marellus
      Sep 15, 2011 @ 09:45:08

      … they said they loved you, but they’re not sure about your love for them, and they needed proof …

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      • Emma the Emo
        Sep 15, 2011 @ 09:49:29

        Lol. Actually, when I was 15, one guy was trying to convince me by explaining how great sex would feel, and the orgasms. Too bad he didn’t know that first time is usually not pleasant for girls, and the orgasm might not even happen. But he was 15 himself so I can’t blame him.

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        • Firepower
          Sep 15, 2011 @ 11:22:12

          you should feel HONORED you’ve kept your virginity this long. fifteen is a pretty late start for a russian girl

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        • Zorro
          Sep 15, 2011 @ 13:56:17

          Emma, are you Russian?

          Ya tibya lublu milaya. Ya hachoo bweet stabwoy, Fsuzhreezen!

          [Sorry for the horrific spelling]

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          • Maya
            Sep 15, 2011 @ 15:17:50

            OMG, where did you get those ‘oo’s and ‘ee’s … Funny.

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            • Zorro
              Sep 15, 2011 @ 15:41:21

              It’s phonetically transliterated. I can say it without any accent. The translation is imperfect (Russian does not translate well into English), but it is effectively “I love you with all my heart, my darling. I know that you are the only one in this world for me.”

              Something like that.

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          • Emma the Emo
            Sep 16, 2011 @ 07:54:24

            That’s pretty good, where did you get that? Sounds like a familiar movie phrase 🙂

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            • Zorro
              Sep 17, 2011 @ 11:01:50

              I used to work at Harvard Medical School. I palled around with a Ukranian woman who was an ophthalmic technician. I asked her to teach me some Russian that would make me appealing to women. She taught me that phrase and coached me until I could speak it without a hint of accent. Then she dialed her daughter’s dorm room at college and told me to say that phrase to her daughter. I did. The girl hung up the phone and was not heard from for three days. When she finally contacted her mother, she told her that “some Russian man is stalking me!” She fled from her room, notified Security, and stayed with a friend off campus. I apologized until my tear ducts were dry (I felt terrible). Her mother laughed until she nearly pissed herself.

              I guess either my Ukranian friend was a great teacher, I was an awesome student, or her daughter just needs to muscle up. Either way, I can make a Russian woman fall in love with me or slap me silly.

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    • Neecy
      Sep 15, 2011 @ 18:27:02

      Well Emma, young girls typically wouldn’t catch onto that b/c during that stage 13-16 you are very much into approval seeking. So any man or guy paying you compliments or simply showing interest is flattering. The last thing a young girl is thinking is “he wants to sleep with me” and moreso thinking “oh gosh he really thinks I am pretty” or “he really likes me”. That is, unless the guy is being extremely straight forward and basically telling her that. But most guys know young women will fall for almost anything b/c of the stage they are in of approval seeking from the opposite sex (which is normal and natural BTW). That is why very young women are attractive to many men b/c they are very gullible and naive.

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      • Emma the Emo
        Sep 16, 2011 @ 08:00:05

        Yeah, I can relate to that. Now I should be mad at my parents for not explaining anything to me. But since I didn’t do anything stupid, I won’t.

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        • Neecy
          Sep 16, 2011 @ 08:42:56

          LOL Yes even the best parents can screw up by not realizing or recognizing that they need to tell you certain things. A lot of times its simply b/c they don’t know since they grew up in a differnt time and era than their children. A lot of the htings thier children face, they never had to face so they are truly ignorant to what is going on out there.

          I also lucked out and didn’t do anything too stupid. I think what happens is if your parents give you a solid foundation very early on in life, it will come back in good way to haunt you when you need to start using your head and making decisions to protect yourself and your future.

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          • MK
            Sep 16, 2011 @ 18:18:01

            I agree with this 100%.
            There are some things I really wish I would have learned from my dad but he never really needed to know them because the times were different. The things I am going to teach my now nearly 4 yr old son are going to make him legendary.

            Neecy,
            Great job on growing your blog fast I think you’re a great example of what active commenting in high traffic places can do to start something off. As your business manager I think your niche should be in saving marriages by showing women why most of them should probably work things out with their husbands when they lose that feeling (and how to do so) vs. ending it and moving on to an unknown likely dismal future.

            MK

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            • Neecy
              Sep 16, 2011 @ 18:55:09

              So, You are my *SELF APPOINTED* manager?! LOL So what is your percentage take?

              Seriously, thank you. I really feared starting a blog and i had no clue what this blog was going to be about (still don’t know lol). but maybe yes, I should be the sole woman to speak out on why spoiled and entitled married Western women will be headed for hell if they don’t start recognizing the error of their ways in shitting on good men.

              It bugs me that some of these women were able to find good husbands and get married then turn around and leave marriages b/c they were “bored” and want to live like the chicks on SEX in the City, while there are some of us out here who would love to be married and in a LTR with a good decent quality guy but never had the chance to marry and have children.

              But what these women find out later is its verrry verrry difficult after a certain age to find what they think they were looking for.

              Case in point my ex stepmother. My father’s second wife is a perrrfect example of blowing a good thing. Homegirl had it MADE! She took advantage of a good thing and husband and father, walked out and got her divorce. Took his two SONS out of the home and to a different state where he had no major influence or hand in raising them and now is regretting it at almost 60. She thought she could walk out on her marriage with two young children and move away to start a successful singing career (in her 40’s) – what a joke and dumbass! HA!

              Now where is she? Struggling in her late 50’s living in small apartments in low income areas (yet still receiving ALIMONY from my dad till the day she dies even after walking out on her marriage). Crying about how my brothers didn’t amount to anything (well you dumb bITCH you took them out of a decent home, in a decent environment with a GOOD father and moved to a ghetto area to raise them around YOUR ignorant family so you could get back at my dad b/c he wouldn’t support your sorry ass singing career ambitions) – IN YOUR MID 40’s! LOL Who does this insane shit? what the hell did she expect?

              Now she cries to my grandmother about how she wishes she could get her “husband” back (HUSBAND? You don’t have a husband you dumb trick) and regretting walking out on her marriage.

              Sorry I just went off there. But I see the end results of what happened to my younger brothers due to having an idiot, selfish entitled witch of a mother who was looking out solely for her own best interest and not her two young sons who should have NEVER been apart from their father. Now that they are sorry, and she is a loser with nothing, she regrets everything and wants to take it all back. Sorry sister you made your bed now LAY IN IT!

              *sorry but everytime I think or talk about her I get infuriated*

              TOO BAD SO SAD for her. She is the kind of woman I despise b/c there are a lot of women who would have loved to have been in her shoes when she was married to my dad. I wish i could have found a hubby like my dad. As my grandmother says – too many loser women end up getting the good guys and blowing it while there are many other women who would have loooved to be in their situation.

              Spoiled and entitled and STUPID. And now she is paying the price and unfortunately so are her two sons.

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              • MK
                Sep 16, 2011 @ 19:10:38

                See I got you going a good business manager can do that. Napoleon Hill would say thats the mastermind concept at work.

                Here are other ideas for you to work through:
                Why resisting a pump and dump alpha could be like saying no to crack (inspired by a post on this page). Summary: Drugs may be fun but whats the long term outlook desperate and strung out. Also druggies get what they deserve pain, despair, death. Lack of self control is not cool.

                #2 and your market is fathers who care about their daughters a product on how fathers should raise their daughters to navigate the minefield and help her opt out of the BS and have a quality life. I got this pegged for my son but the reverse is not quite as easy.

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            • Marellus
              Sep 16, 2011 @ 19:52:20

              Let me tell you about my uncle’s wife.

              They had a farm in the Karoo (A place like Arizona), but she was never happy there. She’d go to town every day on the flimsiest of excuses. And she used to complain to my mother about my uncle.

              To make a long story short, she sold my uncle’s farm behind his back. One day he was a farmer, and the next day he wasn’t.

              So they moved to town, went on the obligatory foreign holiday, and proceeded to do … nothing. My uncle tried his hand at commercial hunting but that didn’t pan out. They tried their hands at tourism, and that failed too.

              And then they lost a significant portion of their money to some fraudulent investments.

              So they had to leave town and move to the coast. There she tried her hand at being an estate agent, but that failed too.

              She got involved in an affair with a married man and divorced my uncle. The affair failed later.

              It went from bad to worse. She lost one her sons in a car accident, which she blamed my uncle for. She even told him she wished it was him that died, and not her son … because of the insurance payout methinks.

              (The thing is my dead nephew tried to to join the army, but was rejected. He was only 20-years old, and there was no money for him to go to university. My uncle went and picked him up the barracks, and on their way back an oncoming car crashed into them.)

              Ultimately they lost everything. My uncle had to go to the USA and live with his brothers. There was nothing left here for him.

              This woman even poisoned her two remaining sons’ relationship with their father. They aren’t speaking with one another.

              And this is because she brainwashed her remaining two sons into stealing and selling the last remaining heirlooms of the family behind his back.

              She is some kind of house-sitter in Cape Town nowadays, sharing a minuscule flat with her , surprise surprise, divorced sister.

              My mother always thought that this woman’s mother was behind all of this. That this old lady brainwashed her two daughters into divorcing their husbands. I don’t know.

              What I do know is that had their farm not been sold off, they would have had a comfortable retirement now.

              My uncle is still in the USA. He lost a leg due to some disease, and he is just sitting there at home waiting for death to take him.

              All this because of a woman that did not realize how good she had it.

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              • Emma the Emo
                Sep 17, 2011 @ 10:22:45

                That’s terrible. I must learn to avoid people like that. I always wonder – are there any signs that someone you marry will do something like that? I wouldn’t want to marry if I was a man :C

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                • Marellus
                  Sep 17, 2011 @ 10:56:42

                  When my uncle brought this woman to my grandfather, i.e his father, he later said that this woman is a snake …

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                • Zorro
                  Sep 17, 2011 @ 10:57:11

                  Only an insane man marries. For men, marriage is a game of Russian roulette…except there are 5 bullets rather than one. The presumption of paternity. No-fault divorce. Community property. Alimony.

                  It’s a contract that belongs in the 18th century.

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              • Neecy
                Sep 19, 2011 @ 02:38:36

                And herein lies the reason decent women can’t or will hardly marry. Idiots like your uncles ex and my dads ex who get the opportunities and blow it. UGH!

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  7. Maya
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 13:34:39

    Oh my god, fifteen is VERY young, definitely too young to have sex IMO.

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    • Maya
      Sep 15, 2011 @ 13:35:11

      I was replying to you, Firepower.

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    • Emma the Emo
      Sep 16, 2011 @ 07:42:00

      I know, I’m glad I didn’t do it. But during the decision-making process, I spoke to another girl who was 14, and she told me she started at 13 and was totally fine about it, and made me feel like a freak for not wanting it. Also made me a bitch for many years, because I thought I had no business dating if I couldn’t have sex. But now I know I shouldn’t have felt so bad, as everyone is different, and many girls aren’t ready for sex until they are at least 18. I’m not sure how to solve this sex problem though. What do you do, if you are just not ready, but want romance anyway?

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      • Maya
        Sep 16, 2011 @ 09:15:52

        You mean when you are too young and you just want romance without sex? I don’t know, I guess it’s difficult because guys can suffer if you cock tease them too much … btw. How old are you? (Sorry if I’ve already asked you before)
        I agree with you that many girls can’t have sex before 18 or even 20, actually now everyone says that, but when I was a teenager I felt totally weird because I didn’t want to have sex like my friends did. (Now I have the opposite problem … But it’s not too bad and also I still can’t get rid of the bad memories (I hope this ever goes away …), so I now don’t plan to do any experiments with sex or romance at all but just live my life and if I fall in love, I’ll marry and have kids, if this doesn’t happen – I’ll keep living my life … Sounds a bit conservative and idealistic I know, but I’m not willing to make any compromises (like settling) and I just want to listen to my heart.)

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      • Neecy
        Sep 16, 2011 @ 17:46:18

        What do you do, if you are just not ready, but want romance anyway?

        Keep searching for that needle in the haystack guy that will wait. i guess. Its very difficult nowadays when sex is just seen as a casual encounter.

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        • Emma the Emo
          Sep 16, 2011 @ 18:46:18

          Then he’s have to wait 4 years. Really. Asexual guys who have no sex drive but still want romance is the thing :).
          .. Or you can refuse to date, feel worthless, slowly become asocial&antisocial over time and grow up with a reduced capacity to bond to people (without any slutting around, too!).

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          • Neecy
            Sep 16, 2011 @ 19:16:23

            I agree. its a tough decision for woman to make these days. Especially when you missed out in your younger years and are a late bloomer who is entering into the age where women’s sexual value decreases b/c of their age.

            Either way i am not going to EVER feel worthless. I’m of the mindset now, if love with the right guy happens WONDEFRUL! If not, then its okay b/c it wasn’t in the cards. I’m still going to make the most of my life AND BE HAPPY regardless.

            Women need to learn to be comfortable in being without companionship if that means she would have to settle or go against her values. Its not worth it to me.

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            • Emma the Emo
              Sep 17, 2011 @ 11:02:02

              I only felt worthless in terms of romance, not in anything else. But it was still bad. I guess I shouldn’t have, since some guys also don’t want sex at 15, it just would take a lot of effort to find those. So I guess nobody is really to blame here, and it all fixed itself anyway.

              And I wouldn’t let the Roissy gang scare you into thinking you will never get a guy to commit to you because you’re over 30. It’s just not true to reality.

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      • Marellus
        Sep 16, 2011 @ 18:32:53

        I’m not sure how to solve this sex problem though. What do you do, if you are just not ready, but want romance anyway?

        … tell your boyfriend that you’ve never undressed a Ken-doll …

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  8. Strauss
    Sep 15, 2011 @ 20:13:13

    As shy/awkward guy myself i have had my bad, almost semi traumatic experiences with women, and ultimately come to realize that i was failing because of poor social skills and lack of “game”. The problem with me is that i was raised to be very respectful and also because the choice of my profession (STEM) rarely had female interaction during college.

    The model i had in my mind about how relationships should work came from my mother which when i asked about what attracted to my father she answered “he was a nice guy, he didn’t drink and didn’t smoke”, which i supposed was what really attracted women,, but maybe these were old times or my mom really was 1 in million woman.

    In my darkest moment, and almost in despair, i arrived to Roissy’s blog (now Heartiste), and at least found hope that i could improve with women, that was the most valuable thing that what i got with that blog. As a over-rational person i valued that even when his ideas sounded very shocking at first, he speaks with the truth, not with the political correct advice found in mainstream media or other media.

    I think that actually a great portion of readers there are just good people in the real world but are really clueless about how to interact with women.

    The only problem that i have got with Roissy is that i have become somewhat cynical, and somehow the mystery about women has disappeared, yet i still would like to have a good relationship some day. I’m 27, so i think that i have still chance to rebuild myself and improve my social skills.

    Anyway, after this rant, is good to know that at least there are some women who are conscious of the difficulties faced by shy guys, when sometimes it seems that really there is no sympathy. Good post.

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    • Maya
      Sep 15, 2011 @ 23:49:20

      Don’t get cynical, I’m sure there are still good women out there! And 27 is very young for a guy, you still have time to improve!

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    • Zorro
      Sep 16, 2011 @ 05:14:45

      I’m 51 and am completely redefining myself. You’ve got plenty of time.

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    • Neecy
      Sep 16, 2011 @ 08:21:17

      The model i had in my mind about how relationships should work came from my mother which when i asked about what attracted to my father she answered “he was a nice guy, he didn’t drink and didn’t smoke”, which i supposed was what really attracted women,, but maybe these were old times or my mom really was 1 in million woman.

      Strauss this herein seems to be the problem. A lot of good guys come from stable family homes (typically) where they had a mother who found a great husband who treated her good. Then they have children (boys) and the boys grow up looking at how their mother chose their dads (and encouraged their sons to be just like their Good fathers b/c that is what made him attractive to her) and figure that they should too follow in the footsteps of their fathers and mothers.

      Your mom told you what she knew to be true – THEN. She told you to be a good man b/c women of her time DID choose and reward the good guys. My mother and the women in my family raised us girls to seek out the same kind of men – GOOD MEN who will be good fathers and husbands.

      They also told us to hold out on sex b/c a man will respect you more and want to be with a woman who makes him wait. Uuuuh. Maybe back then but not today!
      Unfortunately, what our parents of that time didn’t anticipate was the major shift in cultural norms that we see today. We live in a society today that shuns traditional family values and general good behavior in both men and women. We have a very liberal media that promotes extreme feminism that tells women to act like and do what men do (be very sexually promiscuous).

      The media and its various forms encourages and promotes single motherhood, hyper masculinity, dishonesty, rudeness, disrespectful and self-centered behavior in general (listen to the most popular music on the radio, look at all the reality shows). So of course if these are the traits society rewards and promotes, then women will start believing these to be the desirable traits in males. Not only that more and more kids today come from divorced or single parent homes. SO they don’t get to see healthy relationships between their mothers and fathers.

      So. Its just a different time. Traditional good women are having the same problems as the good guys. We were told to be a certain way and that we would be rewarded with male affection and nowadays this is further from the truth. Men typically want the slutty promiscuous hot/loony girls with issues. They don’t want a good girl or a decent woman that holds off on sex after 1 hour of meeting them.

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    • Neecy
      Sep 16, 2011 @ 08:38:40

      STRAUSS,

      You’ll be just fine. You are still very young and have time. I believe in good karma and if anyone tries to improve themselves they will always win – it may take time and patience but it does work out for the best in the end.

      I’m actually ok and kind of happy that the game blogs exist. I think good guys need real solid truths and advice about women b/c so many are getting walked over out there. I am glad that men like you have a place to go and learn how to become much better at seeking and finding women.
      Although, i don’t agree with A LOT of Heartiste’s policies and ideas, i can understand some of them and why he needs to send these messages to men. He is doing a good deed by exposing some the truths about how women think and act today. Going into this thing blindly will not help any man who has been raised by women of a different era.

      The only thing I don’t see in the PUA blogs is encouragement for naturally reserved men to simply get the basics of social interaction / casual conversation down FIRST before trying to go for the girl he wants. If you don’t do this you will never really be all that successful in getting women over the long haul. I get the feeling a lot of it is for immediate gratification and not long term skills needed to stay successful with women.

      I would certainly recommend maybe interacting with women you are not necessarily attracted to and practice becoming comfy in talking and interacting with them. This will help you tremendously with the BASICS of social interaction especially b/c if you eff up you don’t feel too bad since you weren’t attracted to the girls in the first place. You’ll also learn female body language and positive/negative responses to what you are saying. Once you get the basics of feeling comfortable and learning what works and doesn’t work, then you start moving into interacting with the girls you are attracted to. You’ll be much more successful and you will find you don’t even need lines and openers and scripted pick ups.

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    • Matt
      Sep 17, 2011 @ 17:02:54

      Mate,

      You’re still alive. While that’s true, you have time to rebuild yourself and improve.

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  9. Zorro
    Sep 16, 2011 @ 12:59:30

    ALL Pickup artists were introverts. Mystery. Neil Strauss. Tynan (a/k/a herbal). Tyler Durden (a/k/a Owen). They were all introverts who sucked with women and who learned to come out of their shell. Men in the western world are given grief because we are introverts. In China, we’d be KINGS! But in American or Canada, we are pussies who are toooooooooo sensitive.

    That’s why we gravitate to GAME and PUAs. Because they teach us how to associate with women.

    We really are decent guys. And we’re not shy. We just need a little push to get us out of our shell.

    Moose Game.

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    • Neecy
      Sep 16, 2011 @ 17:48:21

      Zorro,

      I hope I didn’t come off as putting down introverted socially inept guys. i was just thinking that the best way to overcome anything or any anxiety or failures is to just keep practicing and doing the very thing that you are not good at.

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  10. Liza207
    Sep 16, 2011 @ 14:36:23

    I use to watch “The Pick-Up Artist” a reality show on VH1 (and one of their better shows) for a few seasons where Mystery who was the host/coach and I believe he was the producer as well. I found the show to be very entertaining– watching a bunch of socially awkward and socially inept guys who were having a hard time connecting with women, transform into social dynamos virtually overnight– it was really interesting to watch their transformations.

    I didn’t really find anything offensive about the show. Mystery came across as a guy who really liked and appreciated women. Although, I believe he coined the term “negging” (no sure) there was never anything said to the women by the guys as advised by Mystery that indicated that they were being objectified or disrespected or being lowered in any way.

    This show was where I first learned about “PUA game” and then, the PUA community developed in the blogosphere and there seem to be an element of mean spiritedness and resentment towards women—a vengefulness that I did not see coming for Mystery or in his techniques.

    I think that Mystery has provided a very valuable and much needed service for many men that were struggling socially. However, it should not be overlooked that some of the wannabes have taken things downhill somewhat and are using the PUA game message to execute their own foul agenda against women.

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    • Neecy
      Sep 16, 2011 @ 17:52:55

      I agree Liza.

      I think its great that men (the good ones) have an outlet to learn how to overcome their social ineptness with women in social situations.

      But you are right. Some are using the PUA and game as a way to execute their negative agendas against women by masking it with game. They mess it up for the sincerely good guys who really are strugglingint hier relationships with crazy women or who are trying to learn better ways at obtaining the women they desire and who are simply trying to become better in social situations and interactions with women.

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  11. Emma the Emo
    Sep 17, 2011 @ 15:56:27

    I was thinking about shy guys lately.. and what you said about who should approach first. I’m not too experienced with dating, but I think expecting them to always approach first might be a demand I can’t afford. Why? Because I’m only ever approached by men I have nothing in common with (too different culturally, and they tend to be too bold, bordering on rude), so if I wanted a relationship with someone I could connect with, I’d have to meet them halfway (of even most of the way if they are very shy or just not interested in me to begin with/ don’t know of my existence). Even the bf I have now, I got by contacting him first (it was internet though, so it’s not exactly like approaching)… I don’t know if the conditions are the same in your case, but if the only guys who hit on you are those you can’t connect with, AND you want to give love a try, you’d have to do something more than let them come to you. What do you think?

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    • Neecy
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 03:01:46

      Emma I responded to this comment of yours under the new topic b/c it directly relates to what I posted. 🙂 Thanx for bringing up this good point.

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  12. n/a
    Sep 17, 2011 @ 16:13:49

    Good post. You’re one of the few people who can write a wall of text and not bore me to tears. 😉

    ************

    Something funny. Black girls have never really been my territory; they’ve always seemed *very* shy around me. I’ve eaten a few Oreos in my day, esp. at school, but the real thing? never.

    It’s been a busy week socially in NYC and I’ve been on the prowl. I like to think that Neecy’s smiling face and subtly sexy ways inspired me to do what I did, which was get a date, for tonight, with one of the finest black women in New York.

    Don’t ask me how or why, Neecy, but you’ve made me *quite* comfortable with the idea of “opening” a black girl. Thanks, baby.

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    • Neecy
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 02:47:12

      N/A you better treat her right!! 🙂 I’m glad I can contribute to another Black woman getting a date in the Global Village. LOL Seriously I wish you luck. More WHite guys should approach Black women they are attracted to, you’d be surprised at how many of us also find you attractive yet don’t ever really know if the feelig is mutual.

      Black girls have never really been my territory; they’ve always seemed *very* shy around me.

      Funny you mention this. The reason Black women may appear very “shy” is b/c many of us have been out of the loop on how to flirt and attract men. Black women are never raised to embrace their femininity and therefore were never encouraged or shown how to be confident and gain the attraction of men they are interested in.

      Many are learning these days but you will find most Black women are used to Black men who are very much assertive/aggressive when it comes to pursuing what they like. I find White males approach women much differently (often times more subtly) and many Black women don’t really know when they are being “hit on” by White or other Non Black men unless the guy is being direct about his intentions.

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  13. Zorro
    Sep 18, 2011 @ 17:24:31

    So what did Zorro do today? He cooked 10 pounds of ground beef and ground pork into the most AWESOME meatballs the planet has ever seen!!!!!

    …listening to the most awesome music of Antonio Carlos Jobim (Brazilian Jazz…or Bossa Nova, for the initiated…)

    And he also watched the DVD to The Mark of Zorro with Tyrone Power, Linda Darnedd, and Basil Rathbone (the greatest swordsman in Hollywood history, when swordsmen were worth something).

    Wooooooooooo!!!!

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    • Zorro
      Sep 18, 2011 @ 17:25:37

      My bad. Linda Darnell.

      What a screw up.

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    • Neecy
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 02:49:40

      I’m jealous AND mad I didn’t have quite the relaxing weekend or Sunday.

      And uhm why have you not offered to ship me any of those tasty meatballs? And why so much (10lbs.!) That’s a whole lotta meatballs!

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      • Zorro
        Sep 19, 2011 @ 05:25:49

        205 to be precise. I use a baby ice cream scoop to keep them all the same size. And I would be delighted to share my meatballs with you, but I don’t think they ship very well. I cook them in a superb marinara sauce, allow to cool, then transfer into pleated bottom freezer bags so I have meatballs and sauce for months. Boil up a little pasta and I’ve got my hot lunch for work.

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