ARRRRGH!!! (for lack of a better more creative title)

ARRRRRGGGGH!!

I tried coming up with some cutesy clever attention grabbing title and all I could muster up was ARGGGGH!

Ladies, You know that ARRRRGGGGH feeling you get when you are standing in Starbucks Coffee Bean, on the train, at the gas station, in the Grocery store, at work, at the Happy Hour Sports Bar, WALMART uuuuh maybe Target is better (Not sure you want to pick up any dudes at Walmart), ETC… You are in these places and there he is – The cutie who kinda smiles and makes googly eyes at you. You smile back with the same googly eyed expression and then he just stands there. And at that moment , as you two are having your googly eye stand off to see who is going to make the first move, you want to grab a bullhorn, pull a Clint Eastwood, and reach down in your purse ever so slowly and quickly grab a gun that when you pull the trigger instead of bullets a paper sign falls down reading:

“I’M A TRADITIONAL OLD SCHOOL GIRL. I DON’T BELIEVE IN APPROACHING MEN FIRST AND THAT IS WHY I SMILED BACK AT YOU AND MADE GOOGLY EYES. THEREFORE, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO COME AND TALK TO ME (no, not about the weather), ASK ME FOR MY PHONE NUMBER, AND/OR RAVAGE ME RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW!!! Thank you!”.

Okay I am kidding about the “ravage” part… Well just a *WITTLE* bit serious – BE NICE YALL its been awhile!.

Meanwhile, While all this is happening (you and cutie boy are having a googly eye standoff) enters Mr. Bojangles the toothless , old, stank bum OR crackhead OR both who hasn’t bathed or had a job since auto correction tape on typewriters was the BOMB – has no qualms *whatsoever* with stepping right in the middle of the standoff asking you for your phone number, a ride back to your place, dinner and a movie – oh and some spare change. Yet Mr. SHY CUTIE who has all his teeth, a functioning brain, a job, and who bathes regularly won’t even come out and ask for what he wants from you.

Now some of you may be thinking that the bigger problem here is not the shy guy not asking for what he wants but rather, why the homeless man OR crackhead is trying to get with/holler at me. Well to that I say, we can look at this two ways:

(1) Ya, its really shitty that bums & crackheads find me attractive and try to holler at me. *super angry face*

(2) YA! That’s so flattering and really cool (I think…. ) that men of all walks of life find me attractive! From the shy cuties to (ahem) crackheads annnnnd HOMELESS BUMS! 🙂  🙂  🙂

Since NEECY likes to look at the glass half full, I’m going with number 2. *confused face*

*HELLO PEOPLE! The Homeless/crackhead man is not the point here – HUMOR ME please and stay on topic! UGH.*

Okay where was i. Oh so back to MR. SHY CUTIE. he just stands there. Or in more frustrating instances, he may actually muster up the courage to actually say something to you. However, it usually revolves around:
– The weather OR

– The weather OR

– The weather OR

– The weather …

do we see a pattern here? YES the topic of discussion is always about – the WEATHER!

But what he *really* wants to talk about is how hot you look, how he wants the digits and wants to get to know you better beyond where you two are standing at that moment of initial contact. But for whatever reason he clams up and can’t just come out and say it. He’s hoping that you make the first move.

Nowadays, this happen a lot. So now women (thanks feminism!!) just throw their hands up and go after the guy they want. They skip all the subtle hints, clues and body language that most women used to do back in the day to let men know that they were interested. So if you’re a new age woman/man, this post may seem somewhat silly and really outdated. But if you are more traditional or shy, you understand this frustration mainly b/c you believe that men are biologically wired to be the hunters and not women.

The problem is two fold. Today, men are so confused as to how to do anything anymore b/c traditional gender roles have been so screwed up over the last 3 decades, that many will and do expect women to make the first move. Or they will make the first move but are often trying to avoid being rejected or embarerresd b/c they themselves are shy, socially inept or awkward and feel they may screw things up – so they just look and stare and let her go by without realizing she was sending cues to him to say that she wanted him to come and talk to her.

The other problem is that a lot of TRADITIONAL OLD SCHOOL women today are shy and/or don’t even know what kinds of subtle cues they can send to the shy guys to let them in on their interest in having them come over and talk to them. I was one until I started reading relationship blogs and feminine blogs telling women what kinds of signals to send to men. SO if you are a shy woman that doesn’t want to assume the “huntress” position, then you have to learn these cues and really use them and hope and pray that the guy can read them.

So what are those body language cues I learned: (these are basics but some guys really haven’t picked up on this and I feel the PUA blogs don’t cover this). I also don’t feel like researching tons of articles on the WEB to get an almost exhaustive list. So I’m just going to use my common sense, my experience, female intuition and what I have learned by being apart of blogs run by women looking to teach women how to use their body language to attract men. what I am listing is not an exhaustive list by any means – just a basic starting point.

INTIAL VISUAL CONTACT – PRE CONVERSATION

(1) Eye contact is the motherload. Having eye contact or rather holding a gaze with a guy for a very brief moment (think 1-10 seconds) looking away and then looking back with same gaze signals interest. Anything longer ruins it. If you must keep looking at him, you need to look away and back for brief moments as opposed to holding long stares. If you want to add more to it make a slight smile while holding the gaze. Doing a full on grin or cheese smile is not suggested.

(2) Fellas same thing, if you see a woman you find attractive but are shy and not sure, try making brief eye contact with her. And if she holds the gaze for a few seconds AND with a smile while looking away and then looking back with same gaze and smile, then you know its safe to test the waters. If the woman has a look like she just tasted PISS in her morning coffee – maybe not the girl you wanna try and hit up for some digies. Just sayin – common sense rules.

(3) Positioning is also key. Women in heat looking to gain a man’s attention or who has already gained a man’s attention and wants to take it further will do a number of things based on her personality. I guess all or most women have the same personalities b/c we all typically do the same things. Those things usually consist of the woman positioning herself in a way that shows off her breast best assets to catch or maintain his eye contact.

(4) Fellas: If a woman is standing in a very “open” way or:
– smiling, smiling and looking away and then looking back your way
– drawing attention to her breasts, her butt, her hair, her legs, her outfit, her lips, her eyes, etc.
– flip/playing with her hair, pouting her lips some,
– Adjusting her outfit in a way that draws attention to her chest, butt, legs;
– placing herself closer in proximity to you for easier access to come and talk to her
– Brief frequent looks in your direction but not being obvious that she is looking your way

(5) Looking somewhat confused; looking like she is thinking hard about something WHILE placing the tip of her finger/fingernails in between her front teeth with a sort of squinted yet sultry look on her face (YES I AM CRAZY! FOR REALZ!) lol Women do this quite often – including myself. I also notice a lot of women do this when they are around attractive guys or guys they want to notice them. I call it the “damsel not so in distress but close to it” look.

These are just some very consistent ways you know a woman has interest. Ultimately, women do a lot of the same things but at different extremes.

Which brings me to my next point – Some of those things I listed may sound like things an airhead or “loose” or a skanky women may do to draw attention to her boobs, butt, hair, lips etc. in more obvious ways but even the most modest of girls can and will find ways to show of her best bodily assets while trying to gain the initial attraction of a guys she wants to approach or notice her.

POST INTIAL VISUAL CONTACT – CONVERSATION/INTERACTION TIME!

Once you read these signals and decide to approach her there are other things that women should and will do to let you know that now she has spoken with you she really likes you and wants to let you know by:

(1) Slightly and playfully touching you ever so often

(2) Laughing, giggly or gleeful smiling (at your really bad/corny jokes ) with her mouth open ; lots of mouth opening/closing (with slight pouted lips) throughout the conversation. IOW’s women SUBTLY will open their mouths a lot while interacting with guys they are attracted to but some will close their mouths poking out their lips SLIGHTLY to reveal its pout

(3) Wide open eyes with many things you say (usually simultaneously while laughing, smiling, giggling with her mouth slightly open while incorporating the eye gaze and/or hair flipping fondling, and positioning)

(4) Slightly tilted head (with lips pouty) while talking

(5) More pitched feminine like voice while talking – IOW”s women just like men adjust their voices to sound more feminine and/or masculine when interacting with those of the opposite sex that they are attracted to

Now some people are probably saying “sounds like a hoochie in training”. NOPE! Women can use these variations on many levels from subtle to OBVIOUS. Most traditional women will teeter these on the line of modesty and subtleness. Other women who are more assertive or inexperienced are really unaware of how to do these things subtly & will often overdue it and make these things obvious – which for a traditional good guy may be a turn off – which makes me wonder if I fit in this category since I rarely get approached by more reserved laid back men. But I believe if done with subtleness it can and does often work to peak a man’s attraction.

Here’s the kicker for me. I’m a SHY GIRL! Liza and I were discussing this and we both discovered something. When we get around a guy we have vibes for we also clam up and sometimes get so caught up in our nervousness we forget know how to turn on the feminine charm. But I found for myself, as I am getting my confidence back after so long, the shyness and nervousness slowly subsides. So here I am talking all this ying yang about how men need to start reading cues, but then they run into super shy girls like myself and Liza who haven’t put into play the very things we need to do to attract the guys. *SIGH*

But I must say as my confidence level has increased over the last year I have started trying these things slowly and YES they work when I do attempt to come out my shell. I find the good guys *are* attracted but never really make a move while the more aggressive types hop on board fairly quickly. So, I don’t know if I have quite figured out the intensity level I should be using them b/c I seem to be attracting the guys I don’t want to take home to momma. So I am working on trying to tweak them and find a nice balance to where I am not turning off the shy and reserved good guys (which I seem to be doing ) and not pulling in the bad boy types.

Back to the woman approaching men thing. I know there are a lot of views on this. Some people say that traditional women who are not getting the traditional shy laid back guys they want, need to let it go already and simply approach a guy they find attractive if he isn’t making a move. I have a problem with that b/c I firmly believe that men should always do the seeking. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard from female friends and acquaintances who said they made the first move and the guys interest tapers off after a short time.

They notice the difference in the guys who approached and came after them vs. the ones they went after. And the end result is the guy who went after them, seemed to have the most interest in them over the long term. I believe this. I don’t think any man would ever turn down a halfway attractive woman who approached him unless she was so repulsive he couldn’t keep his vomit contained. But he just may not be really feeling the girl for whatever reason, but b/c she is ok looking enough to him, he’ll play along for a bit. Usually men have a capacity to store the women they don’t *really* want in the Booty call category or the “when I aint got shit to do” drawer. What woman wants to be *that* woman? Why not play it safe and allow the guys to come to you?

I hear all these stories about women doing online dating sending messages to men they want and like. Many times to never get a response or to get a halfway cordial reply. I’m Like WHY ARE YOU CONTACTING MEN!! All a woman has to do is place her picture and a few words and if a guy wants you he will contact you first. Guys are visual. If they see something they like, they will pursue it. If they don’t its b/c they didn’t like it.

At least this is how I see it. But I am willing to change my views by hearing more from the guys on this matter b/c I am not a man therefore, I cannot speak for men in general. I do know that some men who don’t want to have to do the work to get the woman they want will encourage and tell women to approach them and make the first move. But I don’t want to make assumptions, that is why I will throw this out to the fellas – do you prefer or not prefer for women to approach you and make the first move? Especially if you are more on the shy less confident side. Would it work better if women did make a first move in these instances? Or should women simply send the body language and other cues to get the message of interest across and assume if you don’t respond or follow-up on them that you are not really interested? I would think that would take the frustration out of things for her if more men consistently did this.

Wouldn’t it be easier if men were simply more aware of subtle or even straight forward female body language/cues that let him in on the fact that its okay to come up to her and make conversation showing an interest? I feel there is a big hole in this area missing for males who are having a hard time approaching women. Understanding women’s body language is half the battle. What do you guys think about all of this?

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174 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. Neecy
    Sep 19, 2011 @ 02:54:22

    EMMA a commenter brought up this VERY GOOD POINT in another thread that I wanted to post here and address b/c it pretty much talks to some of the later points I mentioned in the above post.

    I was thinking about shy guys lately.. and what you said about who should approach first. I’m not too experienced with dating, but I think expecting them to always approach first might be a demand I can’t afford. Why? Because I’m only ever approached by men I have nothing in common with (too different culturally, and they tend to be too bold, bordering on rude), so if I wanted a relationship with someone I could connect with, I’d have to meet them halfway (of even most of the way if they are very shy or just not interested in me to begin with/ don’t know of my existence). Even the bf I have now, I got by contacting him first (it was internet though, so it’s not exactly like approaching)… I don’t know if the conditions are the same in your case, but if the only guys who hit on you are those you can’t connect with, AND you want to give love a try, you’d have to do something more than let them come to you. What do you think?

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    • Neecy
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 02:58:17

      Emma,

      This is something I have been toggling back and forth with lately. Especially since as you said, I am (like yourself) not attracting the guys that I want. Part of my struggle with this (although it seems most logical at this point what you are getting at) Is I think I am simply a hard wired traditional old school chick who hasn’t yet come to terms with the comfort of approaching a man first. I am not saying this is RIGHT by any means, but I certainly did ask this question to the guys in my new post.

      The thing is, most of my friends and women I know who have approached the guy first, have not had success in the long run with these men. They say the guy responds but looses interest fairly quickly. On the flip side, they say when looking at the difference between the men they approached first and the ones where the man approached them first, almost ALWAYS the latter seems to have more interest in them over the long term as well as just a higher level of attraction.
      That too, has also hindered me in making the first move with the guys I tend to feel are too shy to come to me first.

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    • Emma the Emo
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 09:47:38

      I’m curious about your friends. Did they approach men that already looked like they were interested in them (those shy guys making googly eyes at them 🙂 ), or just men they liked, who seemed lukewarm? I spoke to my mother about this, who was always successful at approaching and getting the men she wanted. She said the outcome depends on the woman and the pre-existing chemistry between her and the man she approaches. So it doesn’t have to be him doing the approaching, but there has to be something between them first.

      Another thing… You say men whom your friends approach sometimes lose interest. It’s nothing strange, it’s like that for guys, too. Some will be interested, some will not be. Someone who approaches YOU will be interested right from the start though. I don’t see why the act of approaching itself would turn a guy off. But I’m curious about what the guys would say.
      As for men putting women on the booty call list, it’s like women putting men on “not gonna fuck, but can be used” list, so I can understand the danger behind making the first move, but men have it too. I’d like to play it safe, but that means I’m kind of throwing the danger over to the guys to deal with, which I feel is unfair. Of course, you aren’t hurting anyone by wanting men to approach first, and your intentions are good, but I personally feel uncomfortable with this double standard.

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      • Neecy
        Sep 19, 2011 @ 10:18:11

        Emma,

        I don’t think it’s a double standard at all. Women are doing there part in this by sending the guys clues and signals. Its not that I am saying women need to sit back and do nothing and let all the guys do the work. The whole point was that women need to help, but does that help need to be in the form of DIRECT initiating? I believe Masculine males WANT to go after the woman they want. I just believe this wholeheartedly. Maybe it’s the old school in me. Goes back to that whole challenge thing.

        I was always raised and experienced that men like challenges. Anything that comes by easy to them they typically enjoy for short periods of time and then later toss aside when the person, place or thing that he had to work hard for comes his way. But then gain you and I are so far apart in age that I can see why we may have different views on this.

        That is why I mentioned that this post may seem outdated and silly to more modern day or even younger women/men who have been much more affected by modern day extreme feminism than women/men of my era, who while feminism was alive and well wasn’t as extreme. So I think where we split on this is age and era difference.

        There is no way any girls of my time would have ever approached guys first. That was unheard of. So you have to understand that this is the time and era I grew up in and I am having a hard time moving into this new era where women take on more of the aggressor in getting a man.

        Now it does make sense (and I am going to start trying this) to try to make small talk that is not directly correlated to approaching him first. Like as you said, if its obvious the guy is interested but very hesitant due to his shyness then *MAYBE, POSSIBLY* starting a conversation with him first just about general things and then moving into more personal intimate type convo (not about sex but stuff like if he’s currently dating etc).

        I still don’t know. That just comes off as doing too much especially if I did and gave all the signals that say I am interested.

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        • Emma the Emo
          Sep 19, 2011 @ 11:14:47

          Well, genders are different, so some double standards are correct, but this one I’m not sure about. At least to me it makes no sense, because I don’t believe men who need to be approached are necessarily not brave enough in other areas in life. And sometimes he WOULD approach you, but you did it first 🙂 And I was never traditional, so I don’t necessarily want a traditional masculine man that you might want. Plus if I’d consider a shy man too “cowardly”, then I would have to call myself that as well, since I’m not approaching either. But that is just me.

          As for masculine males wanting to chase and be the “hunter”, it might be true. How do you know they like it? I heard some men say they like the chase itself, but those were guys looking to pump and dump/score… Not saying all men who like the chase are like that, but this is the only thing I know of. I also heard people (both men and women) value more what was harder to get, which seems really silly to me, because I like free stuff more, lol. But nevermind that.

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          • Neecy
            Sep 19, 2011 @ 21:40:33

            I also heard people (both men and women) value more what was harder to get, which seems really silly to me, because I like free stuff more, lol. But nevermind that.

            haha! Emma you are so cute! And you’re not the only human species that loooves free stuff! lol. But i can tell you most things free, cheap and easy to come by don’t really hold up in value like something you paid a great deal of money for. As they say – you get what you pay (or don’t pay) for. i believe in that wholeheartedly. But free and cheap is not bad for certain things.

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            • Emma the Emo
              Sep 20, 2011 @ 05:35:02

              Oh yeah? 😀 Well I own lots of stuff I didn’t pay for (no, I didn’t steal it), it’s just that people throw away perfectly valuable working stuff. It’s not that the free stuff is defective, it’s just that people undervalue what they have :). It’s cool, more stuff for me. And this might be said about whom you date, too. Plus I’d be very sad if guys didn’t like me just because I want to pay half the dinner bill.

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              • MK
                Sep 20, 2011 @ 08:50:37

                If you like shy guys the internet is probably a good approach for that market.

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              • Neecy
                Sep 20, 2011 @ 09:21:23

                I’m sure a guy today would appreciate you paying half the dinner bill. LOL There was a time when that was unheard of – a woman paying the dinner tab on a date.

                If I am dating someone or in a serious relaitonship, its not a problem every now and then to pick up the tab. but old school traditional guys would never have it.

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                • Emma the Emo
                  Sep 20, 2011 @ 11:23:29

                  Yeah, men actually insist on paying for you 🙂 That’s rather sweet. Although some Norwegian men are stingy and pay for you, but you can tell they hate it. Haven’t had dates with those types myself, but my mom has.
                  I let them pay if they insist, or course, but once in a while I like to pay, because I want to make them feel good. And it depends on who has more money.

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      • Neecy
        Sep 19, 2011 @ 10:21:39

        Second part response…

        Some examples of what has happened with the women I knew who initiated contact first with men?

        This actually came from women on a blog that deals with relationships and attracting men. The discussion came up about online dating and contacting men first. ALL or MOST of the women there who had initiated contact first shared their online dating experiences with men who they contacted first.

        Often times the guys who actually responded and would agree to dates with them. Once the date happened the guys showed very little interest during the dates, always expected the women to make the first move and initiate everything FIRST in regards to calling, going on future dates etc. Some even asked for her to pay half of the bill for dinner (lol).

        Ultimately, the recommendation from these women was “DON’T DO IT”. Only one had some success with a guy she is now marrying. But this was after she had sent billions of emails being rejected and ignored by most men before finding her now husband who actually responded. What woman wants to go through all of that?

        Real life friends experienced the same things. But more so in face to face instances, the guys would respond b/c my friends were attractive (but possibly not his type). So the guy would be flattered and respond favorly. But after that, they (the females in this instance) found that the guy NEVER made or initiated things first. That he would wait for her to call, wait for her to ask about going out on dates, wait for her to do everything.

        Also many of these guys would FLAKE on future meet ups or simply try to have at home dates with them (easier access to no strings sex when you are in a house as opposed to out and having dinner or doing some other recreational activity).

        So overall the responses I have received from women in general who have tried doing the initiating first have not been Good. And therefore I avoided it.

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  2. Marellus
    Sep 19, 2011 @ 04:05:56

    Neecy.

    Probably one of your best posts. I really enjoyed reading this. Thanks. 🙂

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  3. Zorro
    Sep 19, 2011 @ 05:31:02

    A couple weeks ago I obtained The Flirting Bible by Fran Greene. It’s loaded with color photos of male/female body language, from stances, seated postures, face and head movements and even hand or leg gestures.

    Everything you wrote above is covered in the book, so I guess your information squares with the experts’. Marellus is right; this is one of your best posts yet.

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    • Neecy
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 08:52:40

      Aww thanks Z! You know I think most of it is just INNATE and common sense for women. I think a lot of times women do these things naturally when around men they are attracted to without even knowing it sometimes.

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  4. Andrew Medina
    Sep 19, 2011 @ 07:04:17

    Again, Neecy, you need to read the Mystery Method. He covers a lot of this. Mystery has done such a great job writing I think most of the PUA blogs just assume that the students have done their required reading.

    From my experience on dating sites, I’ve never received a message out of the blue from a woman I found myself interested in. I’ve always been the one to initiate contact.

    I’ll have to check out the flirting bible.

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    • Zorro
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 08:36:38

      Andrew: On the advice of Mystery, I decided to overcome my historic prejudice against body language (I considered it silly, like handwriting analysis). I bought five books on body language.

      The Flirting Bible by Fran Greene. Superb.
      The Definitive Book of Body Language by Allan and Barbara Pease. Very good.
      What Every Body is Saying by Jo Navarro. Superb. He was with the FBI for 25 years.
      Winning Body Language by Mark Bowden. Very good.
      Undercover Sex Signals: A Pickup Guide for Guys by Leil Lowndes. Mediocre-to-crap. The author takes every opportunity to claim that men are stupid. I threw it away.

      What Mystery says in The Mystery Method is very good info, and yes, Neecy should read the book. It was the very first PUA book I ever bought. That man is a frikkin’ genius! Having now read eight PUA books, I have to say that Mystery’s book–along with Magic Bullets, by Savoy–are the two best on the market. Bang is also excellent.

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      • Neecy
        Sep 19, 2011 @ 08:56:34

        I don’t want to read the book I want all these shy cuties to read the book. i got my part down, now we just gotta get the guys I like on board.

        I swear all the homeless men, crackheads and mexican workers have all read this book b/c man they come right out and say what they want, how they want it, when they want it, what they like. etc. LOL

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        • Liza207
          Sep 19, 2011 @ 09:41:16

          These guys are like what the hell, what do we have to lose? The homeless guy is like I don’t have sh!t anyway and I’m use to that, so what if she rejects me. The crack heads are too whacked out of their skull to give a sh!t and the Mexican workers have that machismo-thing going, so they don’t give a sh!t either. And, Neecy, there you have it.

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          • Neecy
            Sep 19, 2011 @ 09:59:11

            LOL I know, but I’m just trying to make a point here. Maybe these shy cuties with a lot going for them should start taking hints from the guys who don’t have anything going for them or anything to lose.
            Maybe this is the mindset shy guys need to develop?

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            • n/a
              Sep 19, 2011 @ 19:55:37

              It’s not a mindset, Neecy. It’s called testosterone. I’m dead serious. Guys that hit on hot girls — guys that can’t help it — these dudes have the juice of the Gods flowing through their veins.

              I’m a weightlifter. I’m bathed in the cumdrug from my brain to my balls 24/7. I look at a hot girl the way Zorro looks at his meatballs. 😉

              Unless you shoot up these shy guys, or give ’em new genes, or at least force them to do heavy squats and deads 2x a week, forget it.

              Now black dudes? lemme explain something to you that you already know. They got more than they can handle. Even the crackheads.

              And the Mexicans are working in the sun all day and that jacks your test like nobody’s business.

              Don’t read the next sentence if you don’t like to blush. More than once looking at your sweet smart smiling face, I’ve been tempted to whip it out, and—.

              That’s testosterone talking, baby. 😉

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              • Neecy
                Sep 19, 2011 @ 21:23:30

                😀 N/A you never fail to make me smile when I read your posts for some reason LOL

                Isn’t testosterone bad for guys to take?

                So you are saying there is no mind over matter involved here? I think if any man just goes for it he may find it wasn’t so bad as long as he has prepared himself that he may get a door slammed in his face or possible rejection. But that is what men are about – they just by nature don’t care about getting a door slammed in their face –in fact, isn’t that what makes a man tick – having to go after something not easy to come by?

                I think we should train more men how to accept rejection as natural and then maybe they’d be more willing to approach women they like with no sweat off their back if she rejected them?

                I thought men generally do have quite a bit of natural testosterone, but due to cultural restraints they go against their raw nature to seek what they want (thanks again FEMINISM!). With the Mexican guys and Black guys I don’t think they have more testosterone, they come from more masculinized cultures that encourage more macho like behavior. White men are more directly affected by Feminism and have been raised to be less macho like when it comes to women on average. To me that’s the only difference – culture.

                I do know they say testosterone increases sex drive. LOL So you already as a male have higher levels of testosterone, then you ADD MORE. OMG I cannot imagine the sexual high you must be on day to day every second , minute and hour. LOL

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                • n/a
                  Sep 20, 2011 @ 18:38:40

                  Ah, kiddo, I don’t “take” testosterone — I *make* it. And no, most men these days do not have high testosterone, esp. white men. They don’t get enough sun, enough red meat; they don’t do manual labor or lift weights; and they don’t look at a piece of ass the way a tiger looks at a gazelle.

                  They don’t even know how. Office work and its often feminized atmosphere and its “stress” has destroyed a lot of men. If they weren’t wrecked already by “feminist” indoctrination at school.

                  Most intelligent men are timid. And then this timidity wrecks their appeal to women and they become angry. A bitter circular hell.

                  I feel for them. But it makes it easy for me to clean up.

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                  • Zorro
                    Sep 20, 2011 @ 19:05:54

                    No.
                    Mercy.
                    For.
                    You.
                    In.
                    My.
                    Swamp.

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                  • Neecy
                    Sep 21, 2011 @ 09:10:21

                    N/A i just realized i was thinking about steriods and not testosterone. LOL! I was really sleepy when i wrote that reply.

                    I think possibly testosterone may have a little something to do with it, but moreso I think its cultural brainwashing that has men so reluctant to go directly after women.

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        • MK
          Sep 20, 2011 @ 08:56:58

          Reading a book will teach the head knowledge but that is probably not the problem for a shy person anyway its the boldness necessary to pound the pavement and put the book knowledge to work.

          I found myself trying to do the same thing for large presentations to 300+ people. Its not something thats comfortable at first but you get better by doing and while I was pretty bad before I’ve actually turned the whole thing around and am a budding JFK.

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    • Neecy
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 08:54:34

      From my experience on dating sites, I’ve never received a message out of the blue from a woman I found myself interested in. I’ve always been the one to initiate contact.

      So Andrew are you saying you never get contacted by women first, or that the women who initiate contact with you first usually don’t create a spark in you like the ones you have initiated contact with first?

      If the latter I believe it b/c so many women I know have said this.

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      • Andrew Medina
        Sep 19, 2011 @ 09:06:36

        “women who initiate contact with you first usually don’t create a spark”

        I’m just not interested in the ones who have in the past initiated contact with me.

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        • Neecy
          Sep 19, 2011 @ 09:16:18

          Thanks. I think you have confirmed what I typically believe most men feel about women who go out of their way to contact or approach them first.

          Do you feel that way b/c its a turn off for a woman to approach you and you as a man want to be the hunter or simply you just didn’t find them physically appealing enough?

          If the latter, if they were somewhat attractive would you respond but with very little interest?

          I’m trying to understand a man’s mental reasoning behind what I believe to be true.

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  5. Zorro
    Sep 19, 2011 @ 07:34:23

    AAARRRRRRRRGHH!

    Okay, Neecy. You are aware that Sept 19 is International Talk Like A Pirate Day?

    http://www.talklikeapirate.com/

    Coinky-dink?

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  6. Liza207
    Sep 19, 2011 @ 07:58:33

    Neecy, very well done. Everything you mentioned about body language and cues of interest are pretty spot on.

    “I’M A TRADITIONAL OLD SCHOOL GIRL. I DON’T BELIEVE IN APPROACHING MEN FIRST AND THAT IS WHY I SMILED BACK AT YOU AND MADE GOOGLY EYES. THEREFORE, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO COME AND TALK TO ME (no, not about the weather), ASK ME FOR MY PHONE NUMBER, AND/OR RAVAGE ME RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW!!! Thank you!”.
    —–
    We are traditional old school gals under 40 and we are a dying breed. I love Pattie Stanger (of Millionaire Matchmaker fame) her advice to women are very traditional and it works for the women who are seeking a real commitment (i.e. no sex before you get a commitment, never approach a guy GET him to make the first move, never pay on the first date (reeks of masculine energy) or ever—instead invite him over and cook him a meal 9(after a few dates of course) and so on). Her advice is geared to women like us and she said many of the women she sets up have gotten marriage proposals, as a result.

    High quality men prefer women who respect themselves and possess feminine qualities. Only low caliber men want to make sluts into wives and the mothers of their children. Water always seeks its own level.

    Moreover, I cannot stand the long eye effing if after a while he does not attempt to make a move, then its game over. If a women making any effort at all to make eye contact with a guy, she is interested, okay.

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    • Zorro
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 08:25:00

      You’re under 40?

      Too young for me.

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      • Neecy
        Sep 19, 2011 @ 09:12:34

        uhm exsqueeze me MISTER? How young is too young?

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        • Liza207
          Sep 19, 2011 @ 09:32:38

          Yeah, how young is too young?

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          • Zorro
            Sep 19, 2011 @ 09:54:56

            Let’s say there is no “too young,” but rather too immature. If a woman is 25 and sophisticated, experienced (in the good way) and well-spoken, I would be inclined to let her play with the fuzz on my antlers. Conversely, if she was 60 years old but possessed a shallow mentality, was disposed to childish nonsense like astrology and–gasp!–was a feminist, I wouldn’t care if she looked like Susan Lucci…she’s not coming near me.

            Still, I tend to gravitate to older women anyway, although I wouldn’t rule out a younger woman. It’s just that men who at the age of 51 take up with 30 year olds are given standing ovations by men…and are given the evil eye by women.

            I feel badly for women who love significantly younger men. Everyone treats them like shit. I don’t think age should be anyone’s damned business. Lots of May-December romances work out very well, and men who marry women 12-15 years older than them are the least likely to divorce (so I’m told).

            My three biggest requirements for a woman’s character (total deal-breakers):
            1. She has a kind and warm heart.
            2. She must have good *sense.* I don’t need a Harvard Ph.D., and I find a whimsical nature very appealing. But I can’t stand stupid.
            3. She’s a good travel companion, because I’ve got Chiang Mai, Rio de Janeiro and Tuscany on my To Do list.

            (if she likes pineapple is also really helpful)

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            • Neecy
              Sep 19, 2011 @ 11:03:14

              Zorro,

              I think what you say is true. I still get approached by guys in their 20’s. But i find anything below 26 is just waaay off even if the sexual juices are flowing. There is just no other connection and there is a big gap in interests etc. But late 20’s and up is not so bad if the guy is mature.

              Also, you’d be surprised at the number of childish men in their 40’s and up. I have gone out on dates with some of these men in their 40’s only to think to myself “am I on a date with a 21 year old?”.

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      • Zorro
        Sep 19, 2011 @ 09:42:48

        Dear Diary:

        Today I made the offhanded remark that women under 40 were too young for me, and it incited rather pointed responses from two women who are–guess what?–under 40. I am now in the precarious position of having to declare my age limitations for inviting cow moosies into my neck of the woods (and I’ll double down that these two will just love being referred to as “cow moosies.”).

        Note to self: Women hate being thought of as “too old,” but we already knew that. Now they resent being thought of as “too young.” They still like to be carded in bars, even when they’re 65, but I have to seriously re-think the *too* concept before commenting further.

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    • Neecy
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 09:07:56

      Yes Liza,

      I used to watch Millionaire Matchmaker but couldn’t stomach it after awhile. But you are right, Patti tries to tell women to keep it traditional and usually those are the women who make out the best.

      And you are right, high quality men do not want airheads and bimbos as wives and moms of their kids (although these days as more emphasis is placed solely on a woman’s looks this seems to be happening more and more these days – men marrying and making slutty, looney, bimbos their ltr girlfriends and wives). That is why i say more modest or traditional women need to be very conscientious when doing a lot of those body language signals b/c many of them if done improperly can come off as skanky or bimboish.

      Regarding the eye f’ing. It can be sexy and fun for a short time but after that if nothing is happening it gets frustrating and you simply just say eff it and keep it moving.

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      • Liza207
        Sep 19, 2011 @ 10:13:22

        Unfortunately, high quality men are becoming fewer and fewer these days. Like duh, right?

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        • Zorro
          Sep 21, 2011 @ 07:31:21

          I would be personally interested to read your list of characteristics, behaviors and general makeup of a “high quality man.”

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          • Liza207
            Sep 21, 2011 @ 13:44:03

            Here is my list as you requested:

            – He sees women in their totality. Yeah, looks are important to him (he is a man after all) but he also needs to know that she can bring something else to his table besides her beauty (in terms of her ability to be a good mother to his children and making sound decisions) as well as what he can bring to her table.

            – Highly selective: the women he lays with has to be of a certain caliber (no sluts or skanks or women with emotional and psychological issues), he is not lead around by his penis. I don’t think any man’s life turns out well when his penis is making the majority of his decisions for him.

            – He takes care of his body not just appeal to the opposite sex but also for his health and virility – and for protection as well.

            – Highly functional and highly capable men who know how to take care of themselves and their families well. I stay away from men who are of a certain age and they are still living at home or have never lived on their own–this to me is a sign of low functionality. If he can’t take care of himself, then how will take care of a family.

            – Commitment minded or even if he isn’t the marrying kind he at least knows how to be faithful to the woman he is with in a long-term relationship and he is upfront about his desire not to be married–they tend to have high morals and possess integrity and character.

            – They are emotionally stable men, so they don’t deny their real emotions. They tend be very secure in their manhood so they are less likely to be abusive to their mates. It’s said that very insecure men tend to be abusive and self-destructive.

            – He knows how to please a woman in and out of bed. He gets pleasure from giving her pleasure. He also knows that if he pleases her in the bedroom she will always make herself available to him for sex. As I see it, if a man is laying it down for me in the sack he will never hear me complain about having headaches…ever.

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    • MW
      Sep 21, 2011 @ 00:47:34

      “High quality men prefer women who respect themselves and possess feminine qualities.”

      I agree. A promiscuous woman virtually never has a healthy self respect. Tangentially, a close friend of mine has shagged close to 50 guys, many of them one night stands. One particularly bad day, she told me how little she thought of herself with these men; “i might as well let them use me, I just don’t care any more….etc.” It was a verrry sobering chat.

      A bright, friendly and cultured woman; yet she has such low self esteem. One of her longest lasting and strongest wishes was to be a housewife with a good man and several children. Even now deep down she still feels like that. But which nice responsible ordinary guy will want an aging tart? Very few.

      Every woman I chat up could potentially be my wife and the mother of my children…this always goes through my mind, however quickly. I’m looking for femininity (for many women this is not the same as affected girlishness), practicality, warmth, kindness and self control. Attraction can grow. My last gf initially wasn’t that attractive to me, but as time wore on, she just looked better and better. Alas it was not to be.

      Very interesting post Neecy. Here’s wishing a good man chats you up, and then down the road you go on to marry and have many Neece-lets!

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      • Zorro
        Sep 21, 2011 @ 07:28:13

        I read somewhere that the institution of finishing schools used to be the most prized component of a woman’s background for her to catch a good man. Finishing schools taught women not only how to manage a household, but how to be feminine, cultured, socially adept and how to use their wiles to exert power in relationships. I don’t think that will ever really come back (although they do still exist, and some of them are for men, too). But I definitely think that the characteristics you listed–practicality, warmth, kindness and self control–are highly prized by most savvy men.

        A woman can be drop deal gorgeous, but if she doesn’t have panache or a sense of how to be elegant, she starts to look like a post-op transsexual. There’s a lot more than mere physical sexiness that makes up a woman’s beauty, and much of that is her character. Things like ethics, morality, and a sense of what she must represent in society.

        Today, too many women seem to think that being tough is sexy. It isn’t.

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        • Neecy
          Sep 21, 2011 @ 10:13:42

          Oh God Zorro thank you for saying this! It makes me feel good to see there are still high quality men out there who still believe in a woman’s true feminine qualities as being much more desirable than a woman of today who just does whatever to wet her appetite for sex. It seems the younger generation appreciates more women who are less feminine and rewards and uplifts women who act mannish, tough and lack feminine integrity.

          Finishing school is a GRREAT idea but I wonder if it would simply be a waste these days for parents to enter their young daughters into such schools. WHY? B/C It seems these characteristics they learn in the finishing school are not appreciated much anymore by this generation of younger men these days.

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          • Zorro
            Sep 21, 2011 @ 10:43:45

            nitpick of the day: It’s “whet her appetite…”

            Whet means 1. to sharpen a blade, or 2. to make keen or eager; stimulate.

            I will agree that there are much fewer young men today who treat women the way a finishing schooled woman would demand, but if you were to put 50 of these men into a room with 50 women who went to finishing school, you’d see the guys’ eyes rolling at how insufficient and unsuitable their behavior is to interact with socially groomed and elegant ladies.

            They’d learn their f*n manners real quick if they expect to have a high class woman in their lives.

            It’s a fact of human biology: the female sets the standards and the male complies or spends his life wanking. So, not to sound sexist, the reason men aren’t very nice today is because the females stopped demanding proper behavior. Once again, Thanks, feminists!

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          • Zorro
            Sep 21, 2011 @ 10:48:14

            I forgot to add: The arts of social grace (such as are taught in finishing school) are, to men, a form of costume which is required for him to stand on a particular stage. But for women, the social arts are a martial art! Women can make men stand on their head by using charm. And charm, sadly, is in very short supply with women these days. And before you say men are also losing their charm…the PUA community is teaching them precisely that. They just aren’t teaching them to be gentlemen, and that’s the ideal combination.

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          • Firepower
            Sep 21, 2011 @ 11:32:53

            neesy
            i think i might have inadvetenlty put you down on roissy
            its not som oknowhedeent! thing

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      • Neecy
        Sep 21, 2011 @ 10:05:42

        MW,

        I have a very close friend like the one you described as well. Great fun loving personality and to know her is to love and enjoy being around her. I love her to death and we get along and connect on so many other levels as friends, but I’ll be damned if this girl just has no limitations on who she will sleep with at any given time.

        i try not to be preachy or tell her what to do b/c she is a grown woman and often times any woman who tries to mention to her promiscuous friends how this is not really good or safe behavior is usually prone to be called “miss goody two shoes” or trying to act like i am high and mighty or uptight. So I have learned to avoid the discussions although its disheartening. But like you I certainly see the toll it takes on a woman who just has no sexual limitation on the amount of men and strangers she beds solely b/c they were attractive.

        there are so many women who think its okay to be sexually promiscuous YET also find a nice guy to settle down with b/c “everyone deserves love”. I don’t think that is fair for DECENT men to have to be stuck with a woman who has acted this way most her life. I’m not saying these women shouldn’t have love, but they should expect or seek it with men who also have lived that kind of life and are more forgiving and understanding b/c they too lived that way. But its crazy to expect decent men to have to take up what a bunch of other low caliber dudes got to enjoy with no strings attached.

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        • MW
          Sep 22, 2011 @ 09:45:21

          “i try not to be preachy or tell her what to do b/c she is a grown woman and often times any woman who tries to mention to her promiscuous friends how this is not really good or safe behavior is usually prone to be called “miss goody two shoes”…..

          If you care about her, at some point, one must tell the plain truth. I told my friend as such one day and although she wasn’t happy about it, there was a new found respect between us. She’s still promiscuous and unfulfilled but I think the first steps to turn the corner have been taken. But man, is it hard for her to break those patterns.

          “..YET also find a nice guy to settle down with b/c “everyone deserves love”. Which really means, “I deserve my dream guy,… because I’m so fabulous.” An attitude of entitlement if there ever was one. They don’t account for the toll their promiscuity takes on them and playas don’t either.

          ”But its crazy to expect decent men to have to take up what a bunch of other low caliber dudes got to enjoy with no strings attached.” Yep. And this irks women like our friends the most. When I told her as much, she was angry, but then despondent. And of course in short order had cheated on her LTR with some other dude. More tears.

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          • Neecy
            Sep 22, 2011 @ 10:33:57

            MW,

            I tried having the come to Jesus discussion with her when she was crying on my shoulder, but they never worked. Instead of her taking that as me caring about her emotional and physical distress, she shot back at me used my situation to mock. She proceeded to tell me that my “PROBLEM” is a result of not having casual sex and THUS I am very uptight stressed and unhappy b/c of it. She further went on to hurt my feelings and insult me by saying she notices all of her “other friends” who have casual sex are happy and well-adjusted and NOT UPTIGHT as I am.

            After that day I washed my hands of that discussion. So when she tells me about her ONS and encounters I don’t say ANYTHING. when she is crying the blues about all the situations she puts herself in due to being sexually promiscuous I just listen and offer no more advice b/c when I have in the past, she turned it back around on me as the one with the “issues” and problem.

            And you are right. So many women feel entitled to have quality men in their lives, when they are not of quality themselves. I guess that is what happens when society tells women they can do any and everything they want without consequence when it comes to sex. That *should* be a consequence of being sexually promiscuous. You lose out on getting the good quality mates b/c they don’t want to have to pick up the pieces of your emotional instability for your lack of self discipline.

            Unfortunately, a lot of men today are shallow and simply base a woman’s worth on how good she looks and are willing to enter into relationships with women who obviously have issues b/c she is “HOT”. So in essence those men too, get what they deserve.

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            • rockandrolla436@ymail.com
              Sep 25, 2011 @ 01:54:13

              Sounds like a bit of distance is in order between you and your “friend” if she’s continuously vindictive and insults you when you try and talk some sense. Drags you down as well. I’d say, “You know exactly what to do to remove yourself from this self destructive cycle…” And deep down she likely does. But the tingles cry the loudest for food and thus they overwhelm the still small voice of common sense. Don’t break off everything but limit yourself; remember, only she can take responsiblilty for her own actions.

              Jesus also said, “Go and sin no more” to the adulterous woman. Yet he also had compassion on her, as well as the Samaritan woman at the well (with 5 previous husbands). His help is there whenever your friend wants to really break the cycle.

              Agreed on the last two paras. Many times people get the mates they deserve.

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              • Neecy
                Sep 26, 2011 @ 11:36:02

                Well we are certainly not as close as we were over the years. She has found friends who embellish this kind of behavior and that is whom she is around most these days. I have also found friends whom I share more common values with and feel more comfy in those interactions. We still get together for quality friendship stuff every once in a while, but we definitely are not as close or around each other’s as in the past. I guess people find others that compliment their lifestyle and find contentment in relationships where they won’t be called out or questioned as to why they do certain destructive things.

                I think she also wants me to feel some kind of jealousy towards her other friendships b/c she always brings them up as if I am or should be upset and feel left out. Crazy. The only reason I still somewhat invest in the friendship is b/c we have known each other for 15 years and when we do get together we have a good time for the most part. But you’re right, distance is the best thing for these kinds of friendships.

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  7. Liza207
    Sep 19, 2011 @ 08:03:31

    Okay where was i. Oh so back to MR. SHY CUTIE. he just stands there. Or in more frustrating instances, he may actually muster up the courage to actually say something to you. However, it usually revolves around:
    – The weather OR

    – The weather OR

    – The weather OR

    – The weather …

    do we see a pattern here? YES the topic of discussion is always about – the WEATHER!

    Funny as hell, Neecy. And annoying as hell–please just get to the point already or move on.

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  8. Liza207
    Sep 19, 2011 @ 08:15:52

    “Back to the woman approaching men thing. I know there are a lot of views on this. Some people say that traditional women who are not getting the traditional shy laid back guys they want, need to let it go already and simply approach a guy they find attractive if he isn’t making a move. I have a problem with that b/c I firmly believe that men should always do the seeking. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard from female friends and acquaintances who said they made the first move and the guys interest tapers off after a short time.”
    —-

    Yep. This move is not recommended because this is exactly the result. Especially, if the guy is traditional and masculine(and that is the guy we want) he will see this as a manly move. Neecy, like you said, you can’t speak for men in general and neither can I but I wouldn’t want any guy who thinks it is fine and dandy for a woman to approach him first –I have a name for a guy like that but I won’t make mention of it here.

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    • Neecy
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 09:11:53

      Liza,

      Remember that DOOD from the other blog who suggested that Black women break out of their shell and step out of their comfort zone for wanting to attract White men by approaching white men at clubs and bars and offering them drinks and starting a conversation with them to let them know they were interested? CAN YOU BELIEVE there are actually “men”(and I use the term loosley) who believe this shit? I was fit to be tied when i read that nonsense. What man would suggest this to a woman? UGH!

      But what was more upsetting was the idiot Black women going “Oh yeeeah that sounds like a great idea!”

      I remember thinking *LORD TAKE ME NOW PLEASE*….

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      • Liza207
        Sep 19, 2011 @ 09:45:59

        Oh yes, I remember that character. I also remember responsing to him because I wanted to know what kind of man would suggest that women do THAT.

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        • Neecy
          Sep 19, 2011 @ 09:52:58

          Yep. At least the majority of Black women had enough sense to not fall for that BS. But the few who did i couldn’t believe it.

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      • MW
        Sep 25, 2011 @ 01:55:46

        Sigh….only in America

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        • Neecy
          Sep 26, 2011 @ 11:37:25

          MW where are you from/located if you don’t mind me asking? yes, America is something else with the way some men act and think. LOL

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          • MW
            Sep 28, 2011 @ 03:54:00

            Beautiful British Columbia born and raised. You should take a trip up some day.

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            • Neecy
              Sep 28, 2011 @ 08:58:47

              I’d love to!

              I also hear of how beautiful it is there and how nice the Canadians are. They seem to be, for the most part cool, nice and laid back people. i don’t think I ever met a Canadian i didn’t love.

              I remember years ago i was going to move to Canada b/c the film industry was booming there (always wanted to be a filmmaker). Not sure if it still is.

              The only proble would be the super cold weather. UGH!

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              • MW
                Sep 29, 2011 @ 14:39:06

                SW BC weather isn’t too bad. Like Seattle, rains a lot in the winter but when the sun comes out, there’s no place I’d rather be. Where the mountains meet the sea… You’d be fine.

                Film industry is still humming along too.

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                • MW
                  Sep 29, 2011 @ 14:44:16

                  For a real experience, you should head to Quebec or Newfoundland. Rich, distinctive cultures and lots of history. Quebec City and Montreal are a must.

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                • Neecy
                  Sep 29, 2011 @ 15:31:00

                  Interesting. Now is your weather like Seattle is year round – i.e. raining and overcast for 10 months out of the year? If so, aaaah don’t know if that’s a place I’d want to be for a long time. I’m used to sunshine almost year round here in California.

                  I bet it is beautiful though, then the sun comes out.

                  I have also heard great things baout Quebec and Montreal.

                  maybe doing a cruise will allow me to see most of Canada.

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    • Mindful
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 10:17:41

      I think you women are seeing it in an all or none situation. There are subtle things women can do to get attention without making an obvious masculine move. It would seem that the American/Western woman has really lost the art of femininity.

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      • Liza207
        Sep 19, 2011 @ 10:22:27

        Absolutely.

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      • Neecy
        Sep 19, 2011 @ 10:53:20

        It would seem that the American/Western woman has really lost the art of femininity.

        THIS RIGHT HERE MINDFUL! That is what I am getting at. Its like women lost the desire to simply do subtle feminine things to attract men. Also we can include the way women dress today. In the past women could be sexy by not trying to hard to look sexy. but nowadays if you are not literally wearing a tube top with other revealing clothing then you are a prude. Now I will admit I am not the *MOST* extremely modest or conservative in the way I dress. I keep it in a nice mix of modern day sexiness with some revealing but more so on the girl next door side of things.

        I just don’t know what to think is right or wrong anymore. Something just tells me in my gut that approaching men directly is just simply not natural or feminine.

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      • Emma the Emo
        Sep 19, 2011 @ 11:17:48

        Question: is making the first move necessarily a masculine move in itself, or it depends on how she does it? I believe it can be done in a feminine way, looking at some women I know.

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        • Zorro
          Sep 20, 2011 @ 00:29:41

          According to several books I have read on body language, the “first move” is almost always made by the woman, and usually in a subtle physical gesture. Something that conveys “Hey, come talk to me,” without being brash. Women communicate their willingness to talk with a man by exposing their wrists, smiling, holding a gaze for three seconds and then looking down and away (projects submission, which means she won’t snap at you), and other methods…which are usually lost on men who are not trained to spot body language. Most guys think they took the initiative and made the first move, not realizing that the way her shoe dangled loosely on her foot and the way she tugged at her necklace were both calculated to project her openness to his advance.

          Women who make the first move that is not a subtle physical cue run the risk of looking like sluts, and there is nothing (apart from a child) a woman will protect more ferociously than her social reputation.

          Women make the first move, and it’s silent.

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          • Neecy
            Sep 20, 2011 @ 09:14:53

            Women make the first move, and it’s silent.

            I agree. but do you think this is becomming outdated? It seems this generation doesn’t buy into that anymore.

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            • Zorro
              Sep 20, 2011 @ 13:25:34

              It’s unconscious. And it’s genetically mapped. Most body language is unintentional and unconscious.

              Men preen when presented with a hot chick. They (we) always deny it, but if you watch us, you will see us shoot our cuffs, adjust our tie, slick our hair, pick nonexistent dandruff off our shoulders, etc.

              Women primp. Men preen. And both will deny it.

              Nothing is changing but the shit politics and the media does to us. Men and women are just as we have been for silly centuries.

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      • MW
        Oct 01, 2011 @ 11:29:02

        Cruises would be a great way to see all three coasts, the St. Lawrence Seaway and the Great Lakes, but there`s a whole country between those waterways. with any luck you could be one of the rare folks that cruise the Northwest Passage, but brrr, it gets cold in the High Arctic…heh. Take a look at a map; it`s a huge country, bigger than the US including AK.

        Or you could visit here to start:

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        • Neecy
          Oct 01, 2011 @ 11:36:37

          Wow Vancouver is beautiful !!! Maybe Liza would be down for a trip there. Regarding high artic ohhhhh noo! Can u imagine if the ship got stuck there? I’m not very fond if cold weather at all.

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  9. Liza207
    Sep 19, 2011 @ 09:30:09

    Nowadays, this happen a lot. So now women (thanks feminism!!) just throw their hands up and go after the guy they want. They skip all the subtle hints, clues and body language that most women used to do back in the day to let men know that they were interested. So if you’re a new age woman/man, this post may seem somewhat silly and really outdated. But if you are more traditional or shy, you understand this frustration mainly b/c you believe that men are biologically wired to be the hunters and not women.

    Yeah, the Sexual Revolution and Feminine has threw the male and female dynamics so out of whack its like up is down and down is up and I’m want to scream—I actually want to scream.

    Neecy, as I was walking for dog this morning before leaving for work (this is where I get a lot of thinking done) and I was thinking of the times when we talked about wanting to meet men from other countries namely Europe because American men were becoming a bit tiresome on the BWIR blogs before we met.

    I was pondering that there has to be some other continent (Europe or Australia maybe) where the male and female dynamics were less dysfunctional compared to the one here in the states. When a woman who isn’t into having her body used as sperm receptacle to get a relationship is referred to as manipulative and some other negative adjective, while if you slut it up you are mostly likely to get more male attention and positive reinforcement from them and if you are looking for a commitment you can forget it or your chances are higher that you’ll get one for being a slut. I just don’t know anymore, really. You are basically, damned if you do or damned if you don’t or whatever the hell.

    I cannot stand the dysfunction anymore and battle of the sexes and all the other crap. There has to be a place in the world where males and females behave functionally towards one another—I just don’t believe it’s this place anymore.

    I know this may sound a bit negative but sometimes you have to look at the reality of a situation but still have some hope. By the way, I am a Capricorn and we tend to be realists (not pessimists).

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    • Neecy
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 09:51:33

      Yes Liza American male/female relationships are so warped and dysfunctional i often wonder at times if i will find a quality man that still likes and respects women who don’t just hop in the sack with them in a short period. Slutty women these days get rewarded. PERIOD. If you are not putting out fairly quickly you are seen as a prude with issues or as you said MANIPULATIVE and trying to play games with a man b/c you want to hold out on sex until he proves his worth. SAD. My mom can’t believe it either. She’s like she really can’t understand what the problem is with me finding a *QUALITY* man and I have to keep telling her things are so different today than her time where men actually respected and PURSUED women who held off on sex.

      I remember reading quite a few male responses on some blogs in which the guys stated that if a woman does not KISS him on the first date, he will never contact her again. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen/read this from men today. Soooo if a woman doesn’t tongue a guy down after a first date, she is not worthy of his time or efforts from that point? but if a woman tongues down a guy she barely even knows past the spaghetti dinner they had after a first date then its GAME ON and she gets rewarded with future dates? GOT IT!

      Yes, please compass me in the direction where men and women still have some semblance of functionality, respect and standards for each other., Like you, i am not sure its in America anymore.

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      • Liza207
        Sep 19, 2011 @ 09:59:44

        “I cannot tell you how many times I have seen/read this from men today. Soooo if a woman doesn’t tongue a guy down after a first date, she is not worthy of his time or efforts from that point? but if a woman tongues down a guy she doesn’t even know after a first date then its GAME ON and she gets rewarded with future dates. GOT IT!”
        ——

        Men these days have the lowest standards for the women they are willing to date–it’s absolutely disgusting. They just love those sloppy seconds chicks–let them have at them if they want.

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    • Mindful
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 10:19:20

      Find a place that does not have American television.

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  10. Zorro
    Sep 19, 2011 @ 10:15:45

    Here’s a paradox in the dating world today. Some people consider it a hideous problem, while others consider it a blessing.

    There are men (moi, par exemple) who are highly attracted to women who most definitely do NOT put out on the first, second, or third date. In fact, the more work I have to go through in order to “solidify the relationship,” the more that is a relationship I want.

    If I can get into a woman’s pants on the first date, then a hundred other guys already have.

    Ewwww. What might have been a very attractive woman now becomes a biology experiment.

    Supply & Demand. Liza said water seeks its own level, and this is why. High class women are magnets for high class men. Low class men are magnets for low class women.

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    • Zorro
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 10:16:06

      damned bold!

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    • Neecy
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 10:32:38

      Zorro,

      I believe you represent the last of the Mohicans in terms of men who feel this way. based on your age (and even mine) it makes sense that the era we came from men actually felt this way! I was raised by my mother and father the same way – if you put out easily then its a reflection on how you as a woman hold no standards for yourself. That any man who sees the quality in you will wait until the woman feels the time is right for intimacy. And guys did wait if they really liked you. But its different now. Nowadays, that frame of thought is seen as a woman being manipulative. I don’t understand this. A guy I went on a date with ACTUALLY said this to me – that this was manipulative behavior I was usggesting by not putting out even if I wanted to have sex. that I was being manipulative and trying to trick and trap a man. I remember crying at my house after that date thinking WTH.

      I was also raised that a woman’s body is her temple and she should never abuse it like a machine with having all kinds of free for all sex with men. I said that somewhere and the women were like “WTF is that outdated crap you are talking about!”. *sigh* lol

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      • Liza207
        Sep 19, 2011 @ 12:25:39

        Neecy, I am telling you; we have to go across the pond or something because the dating scene here has gotten really dismal.

        I love European men and the Aussies are so damn delicious. Dust off that Passport, girl.

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        • Zorro
          Sep 19, 2011 @ 15:20:13

          I’ve been to Europe, and I’ve nothing against Aussies. But you might want to consider that feminism is wildly more entrenched in Europe (guess what the gender blowback on that is!) than it is in the US, and Australia has some of the nastiest feminists in the world. Men are treated like shit in the legal system in Australia. Australian men donate over 25% of the operational costs of Men’s Rights Activist web sites (like A Voice For Men) here in the States.

          Don’t expect much more chivalry or gallantry by leaving America.

          South American women have a reputation for being *untouched* by feminism. Yet it is the PUA Roosh (whom Neecy is familiar) who lived in almost every country in South America, and he states that South American women are in no way particularly preferential to North American women.

          The grass is always greener…

          My advice: Forget men! Get yourself to a northern swamp and look for some velvety antlers. A bull moose looks after his cows, he cares for his children, and most of us are the shit when it comes to the Argentinian tango! We tell great jokes, do impersonations, and if a bear even looks cross-eyed at one of our cows, we give them a 900-pound dose of fuck. you. up!

          Moose game!

          PS: I am Lord and Master of my kitchen. Stuffed mushroom caps. Meatballs. Beef stroganoff. Baked shrimp. Fetuccini Alfredo. On Thanksgiving, I will humiliate Giada de Laurentiis! I can select the best French and Italian wines.

          Just sayin’

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          • Liza207
            Sep 19, 2011 @ 18:22:23

            I really love a man that knows his way around a kitchen since I can’t stand being in one. Yeah, that’s hot.

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          • Neecy
            Sep 19, 2011 @ 21:10:35

            we give them a 900-pound dose of fuck. you. up!

            mmm. I love a man..or should i say MOOSE that passionatley protects what’s his!!! Very hot.

            I’m with Liza – I hate the kitchen (but i’m great and can make up for it in other areas ;). But A man who is good in the kitchen and loves cooking is a DREAM! I find that when men can cook well, they *REALLY* know how to cook well!

            Zorro, for those Aussie men (and even Nordic Swedish ones) to have such Feminism they are still quite masculine and raw – so it doesn’t look like its affected them on that level. That is what makes those AUSSIE men AND SWEDISH men so YUMMY – their raw masculinity.

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        • Neecy
          Sep 19, 2011 @ 21:37:32

          GIRL those Aussie guys are beyond YUMMY and EXUUUUUUUDE pure RAW masculinity. You said nothing but a word! My passport is sitting and waiting. I had planned on a European trip next year anyways. We need to get it going. 😉

          Also these Swede Nordic guys to are very traditional masculine men and they have very strong feminist presence in their countries. but its not on the level of American Feminism from what i understand. Plus those guys there have no probs getting together with traditional women of other races/cultures if their women don’t appreciate them. (they also appreciate a little chocolate in those Nordic countries unlike America that has never recognized or celebrated the beauty of Black women. 😉

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          • Liza207
            Sep 20, 2011 @ 07:10:06

            I have been planning a trip to Europe for next year too. We definitely need to get going.

            Yes, I know that Sweden in particular has an extreme feminist presence but from what I have heard from the men–they are so over the women there. Moreover, as you said, they really appreciate a little chocolate and what is also nice–not dealing with racial hang-ups.

            Fact: The average height of a Swedish man is 6′–awesome, right.

            I have never seen an Aussie I wouldn’t let just ravish my body. Seriously. The accent alone just makes me weak in the knees, girl!

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            • Anonymous
              Sep 20, 2011 @ 09:13:42

              Me playing the Devil’s Advocate 😀

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            • Anonymous
              Sep 20, 2011 @ 09:14:28

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            • Neecy
              Sep 20, 2011 @ 09:38:07

              Yes I took note of the height thing too in those countries. They say in countries where the standard of living is high, the men typically are taller. Not sure if this is any scientific relevancy but that is what I read on why Nordic countries have such tall men on average.

              And ITA regarding the Aussies. I always said if I can come back in a second life, I would like to come back as the woman who is married and has kids with Hugh Jackman. GOOD GOD that man is effin amazing!

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            • Zorro
              Sep 20, 2011 @ 11:45:00

              Just sayin’, but I have heard that France is the *least racist* country in the world. Many black singers of the 50s and 60s who left the US settled in France because the French don’t give a f*ck about skin color.

              Just what I heard. Your mileage may vary.

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              • Liza207
                Sep 20, 2011 @ 12:05:15

                Yes, I know this about France. Many black female singers (namely Josephine Baker and Eartha Kit) were during the 50’s and 60’s were able to find great success there, as you mentioned. Black female models who couldn’t get work here in the states have gone to France and are doing very well. Yes, the French do love black chicks.

                In fact, the first country in Europe I would to visit is France particularly the South of France–can’t wait!

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    • Liza207
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 14:13:36

      I also believe that men(real men)who are highly attracted to women actually like a challenge and I don’t believe that has or will change.

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    • Matt
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 21:03:00

      Zorro,

      I’m glad I’m not the only one who feels this way.

      I’m always wondering if women understand what it says about them that they are willing to put out within fours hours of knowing a man. Sure, the man might (and most would) take advantage, but she’s just been disqualified from anything lasting.

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      • Neecy
        Sep 19, 2011 @ 21:50:10

        FOUR HOURS?? Ha! I know girls who put out within an HOUR Matt. Unfortunatley its one of my g/f’s. Ironically, the same friend who gets pumped and dumped by these guys but had the audacity to tell me I was “uptight” b/c i didn’t have casual sex like she did. no thanks hun -when i see all the emotional and physcial issues she has from sleeping around, I’ll pass.

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      • Zorro
        Sep 20, 2011 @ 00:20:24

        Maybe it comes with age, maybe not, but the faster a woman agrees to sex, the more men I know she’s had…and the more men a woman has, the less stable she will be in a relationship. That is a scientifically proven fact.

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  11. Emma the Emo
    Sep 19, 2011 @ 10:32:34

    I decided to search this 🙂 Found some random forum answering the question about whether a woman making the first move is a turn off or not.
    http://www.yelp.com/topic/chicago-men-turn-on-or-off-if-a-woman-makes-the-first-move

    Read the mens’ responses 🙂 I’m still curious about what Andrew would say. It looks like men might find you unattractive, and so politely reject you, but not because they disliked that you made a “manly” move. Unless you acted clingy, desperate and rude in some way.

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    • Neecy
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 10:47:37

      Emma,

      Emma,

      MOST of those responses were by women with a few men sprinkled in. Although I never said that men did not accept the offers or were against being approached. In many cases for super shy men this takes the load off of them having to do the work. But I would like to see studies on men who went out with women who approached them first and the women they pursued first and see the terms of those relationships, how long they lasted and the long term interest/attraction factor for the two women.

      The problem is women today don’t know how to send the right body language and signals and men don’t know how to read them. So everyone is like screwed up thinking this is normal for girls to go up to guys and simply ask them out without even trying to send cues and body language that would catch his attention and give him the option to come after you if he wants you.

      Ahhh I don’t buy it – that the guys were not attracted to the girl. If that is the case he would not agree to dates or accept the come on. A guy can be physically attracted to a woman but not really be into her. There are people that a man/woman can find attractive but that doesn’t mean they want to date them.

      Most of my friends who have shared their experiences with me and who have done this are CONVENTIONALLY attractive American White women that most men would respond to favorly. The problem is NOT that the men don’t find them physically attractive, but rather that the interest weings after a period of time and ALSO the biggest issue which I am pointing out is the EXPECTATION of the women to initiate things first throughout the time they know each other.

      IOW’s approaching a man first in many instances (based on the responses from women I know personally and who I read online testimonies) sets the stage for women to initiate everything that guys typically do when they have an interest in a woman they had to work for.

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      • Emma the Emo
        Sep 19, 2011 @ 11:35:57

        Actually, the number of responses from men on that forum is almost half. And they didn’t just accept the offers, many said it was a turn-on. But what I noticed is that some women said how the guys they asked out tended to be too passive, so that might be a real problem. But some had better luck and even married. But it would be interesting to see a study on how relationship quality/length correlates to who asked out who. Might look for that later. But even if that study showed that the relationshiops where the woman made the first move were shorter, we’d have to know why it is like that, to conclude anything.

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        • Liza207
          Sep 19, 2011 @ 11:57:49

          Yeah, the stats on this would be interesting.

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        • Neecy
          Sep 19, 2011 @ 21:03:20

          But what I noticed is that some women said how the guys they asked out tended to be too passive,

          And this makes much sense to me. IMO a man who expects women to directly ask him out, is one who is more on the passive side. That is definitley not attractive to me personally.

          Maybe the whole issue for me is I like a man that takes charge and goes for what he wants – caution, rejection be damned. To me that represents what a man is by raw nature. One who isn’t afraid of a challenge or afraid to get a door slammed in his face – he’s still going to try and go after what he wants. And if he gets a door slammed, he’s going to dust himself off and keep moving.

          I like a solid man, not a passive one that waits for the woman to do his job as the hunter.

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    • Andrew Medina
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 11:59:18

      I guess I should have clarified. The women who initiate contact with me first on dating sites typically fall into 2 columns

      1) Obese (just a matter of physical attraction, nothing against them)
      B) POINTLESS human beings (If I can’t stand you and you bore me intellectually, how am I supposed to get it up for you?)

      Now if someone like yourself were to initiate contact with me, I’d be pleasantly surprised. I wouldn’t want to unbalance the whole push/pull dynamic that makes early stage chemistry work, but you would see interest from me.

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    • Student
      Sep 20, 2011 @ 23:33:01

      I am an attractive, tall, & fit young dude (not that it really matters for girls, besides making it easier to approach). i have most likely been approached by girls more than the average bear, and it definitely does work in many cases. ie, i will often be more open to a female who takes the initiative than one who expects me to approach (it feels good to be wanted, and as a male, my biological programming is to be at least open to the idea of hooking up with a girl i would otherwise not be tempted to approach). that said, rarely has it ever happened that a truly gorgeous girl has approached me. usually they do neecy’s thing, coy, subtle to obvious body language and moving to my general proximity. as much as i love girls that help out, i am drawn on a much more primal level to girls that play coy and expect to be hunted. that said, it is often very difficult to approach, even when the girl is beyond obviously interested.

      however, i think a woman expecting to be approached is testing the cojones, the initiative of her potential suitor. if the guy doesn’t bust a move, he is probably not ready to be the father of her children or the successful man she expects him to be-at least, not at that stage of his life. as such, she will be willing to walk away and forget it as soon as the next guy comes along. i was quite a late bloomer (emotionally, socially and physically in a masculine sense) and even though i was quite the looker in high school, i hardly ever approached, due mostly to low self esteem, fear and inexperience. (and unlike girls who move on, i remember missed opportunities from over a decade ago)

      bottom line, its a complex issue. but guys are so rarely approached, that as long as you do it in a fun, cool and casual way, chances are we will be more than receptive (for at least friendship), even if we aren’t particularly attracted to you off the hop.

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      • Neecy
        Sep 21, 2011 @ 09:45:14

        Student,

        Thank you for your honest insight and I think you do offer a nice balanced view from both perspectives on this. You did say you were young (not sure how young) but i find the generation today of 20 somethings (both male and female) are a lot more forgiving of women doing the approaching.

        I’m in my 30’s so growing up it was mostly unheard of that women go up to guys and hot on them or try to pick them up. It was assumed and EXPECTED that a guy be the hunter. But then again, times change so that is why i understand moreso a younger guy not having any issues with girls coming up to him and hitting on him etc.

        As I have mentioned, I do often wonder though, how *interested* the guy really is in the women who come up to him first as opposed to the ones he goes after. Some women are consciously aware of this and feel its better to let him walk away than to go up to him approach him have him respond in favor and then wonder later “would he have liked or approached me if I had not made the first move?”. I believe most women want to feel like they have been sought after by a man.

        I don’t think a lot of women would be comfortable with wondering if she had not come on to you first, that you would have not really made an effort for her b/c you weren’t really interested enough to make a move. The hamster starts wondering “what kind of girl would he have approached if it wasn’t me”. Make sense?

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        • Student
          Sep 21, 2011 @ 10:28:17

          well neecy, i am in my late 20s. i ws referring to experiences from 16 until now. i am currently in a relationship, where my gf pursued me hard before i had really even noticed her. as bad as it sounds, i thought her assertiveness meant that she was, how shall i put this- someone who got around (EG, one of our first interactions was her attempting to unbutton my shirt in a nightclub). ironically, this girl was quite inexperienced w guys, and she now tells me that her experience w being assertive was that it usually (always?) would not work.

          so heres how it worked with me. although i was initially overwhelmed by all the attention and my interest was therefore minimal, she eventually cooled off and it made me chase her a bit. i think that was the key. if the girls do
          *all* of the chasing, the guy will often not be down. but if she initiates, then sits back and lets the guy do the work, then it can potentially be a successful gambit (probably what i would do if i was an alpha female).

          as for the hamster thing, i think its a clever rationalization tool (which is the metaphor that roissy uses). i don’t think girls don’t approach because they wonder “what girl would he have approached?”. i think this is a case of your hamster rationalizing the even more stark truth, that women play coy because they want to be dominated by a stronger man (you know this on a subconscious level but consciously you will struggle to admit it). being the hunter short circuits this biological programming, although social conditioning (feminism etc) makes it seemt hat women should be strong, empowered etc (which they definitely should, in cases other than initial romantic encounters).

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          • Neecy
            Sep 21, 2011 @ 23:10:29

            i think this is a case of your hamster rationalizing the even more stark truth, that women play coy because they want to be dominated by a stronger man (you know this on a subconscious level but consciously you will struggle to admit it). being the hunter short circuits this biological programming, although social conditioning (feminism etc) makes it seemt hat women should be strong, empowered etc (which they definitely should, in cases other than initial romantic encounters).

            Interesting I never thought of it this way. but i will agree that ultimatley many women do want to be pursued and conquered by a dominant man.

            I may one day just *TRY* doing something more than walking away just to see the results. But I’m still not sure about that. I’ll have to see how I am feeling that particular day. LOL

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            • Student
              Sep 22, 2011 @ 11:05:10

              perhaps the solution, or compromise, would be for you to try indirect game, as opposed to direct game. being subject to direct game makes me uncomfortable but even the most non sequitur of indirect (EG, one woman once came up to me and literally just said “hockey players can’t dance”) game will get guys attention and probably make them curious. then, they can take it from there. or not.

              give it a try, and write a blog posting on it. would be curious to see what your results are.

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              • Neecy
                Sep 23, 2011 @ 05:30:51

                That’s a pretty good idea! Indirect game 😉 I’m gonna try it one of these days and see where that gets me. Thx!

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  12. Liza207
    Sep 19, 2011 @ 11:54:05

    IOW’s approaching a man first in many instances (based on the responses from women I know personally and who I read online testimonies) sets the stage for women to initiate everything that guys typically do when they have an interest in a woman they had to work for.

    ——

    Neecy, this is so true. I have heard guys say that if a woman approaches them first, it will be on her to initate everything else during their interactions. It can get a bit sketchy.

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    • Neecy
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 20:56:14

      Yes. I think women who are aggressive in going after guys find they end up having to take up the slack of what most men would normally do in the relationships. B/C in my view a man that expects women to come on to him FIRST and directly ask him out is more of a passive type that would look to the woman to do other masculine like things in the relaitonship.

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  13. Marellus
    Sep 19, 2011 @ 13:49:02

    Reply

  14. Mark Slater
    Sep 19, 2011 @ 20:16:56

    * suspend lurk mode* — [Yes, I actually saw a silly girl write that recently on Heartiste]

    I am seeing here and on other places classy women of accomplishment (and not bitter fem-libs, either) lament that they can’t find decent men, and even to toy with the idea if seeking masculine companionship in Europe or Australia. I find out that these girls are based in Los Angeles or Washington, D.C.

    I think to myself, “Just what sort of gentlemen to they *expect* to meet in these rather hostile environs?”

    Forget about Europe. How about Brighton, Colorado [FULL of handsome cowboys, by the way, Miss Neecy] Cheyenne, Wyoming; Wichita, Kansas; Lexington, Kentucky…etc?

    For all of Mr. Zorro’s bombast and doing Lord-knows-what with pinapples, he is undoubtedly a thoughtful and intelligent gentleman. I would be willing to bet that men like him would be in short supply in LA/DC.

    * resume lurk mode *

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    • Neecy
      Sep 19, 2011 @ 20:53:38

      LOL Mark @ the lurkmode comment. I couldn’t resist what can I say…

      Why are you in lurkmode? I look forward to your expertise!

      I did here Colorado has a great surpluss of men available. Wouldn’t mind going there. But what you have to consider with all the other places you listed is are they Black female friendly? And are the cowboys into dating Black girls from the city? Those are not very diverse or interracially mixed places you listed. How would a Black woman know if she moved there, that she would have success dating and finding love?

      P.S.

      I don’t think there are many men left like Zorro around much anywhere in America.

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      • Mark Slater
        Sep 19, 2011 @ 21:16:09

        “…And are the cowboys into dating Black girls from the city? Those are not very diverse or interracially mixed places you listed. How would a Black woman know if she moved there, that she would have success dating and finding love?”

        Well, I don’t know. I can’t answer for the desires of every other man. It just would seem to me that there are some places in this great land more conducive to meeting the right person and settling down to domestic tranquility. I would think that this proposition would hold true regardless of ethnic heritage.

        And, hey, we aren’t all intolerant savages here in the Heartland (contrary to what Hollywood would have you believe). We are also bold enough to pursue a woman and can carry on an intelligent conversation beyond the weather, the weather, the weather….

        “I did hear Colorado has a great surplus of men available.” From my perspective, a dreadful shortage of quality women. Alas!

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        • Neecy
          Sep 19, 2011 @ 21:30:54

          Oh you are a corn fed Mid Western boy eh!! niiice. Yes I will say that a woman can and will most likely find a nice traditional guy in these parts of the country. The problem is many traditional mid western White families are very conservative and not very open about their sons dating minorities. Actually this is what I gathered from an interracial forum for Black women i used to frequent where a lot of the Black women in the mid west said it was very difficult dating interracially in these areas. in fact they said its easier in the SOUTH to date interracially than mid west. Interseting.

          The situation is a bit trickier for Black women than say just a regular WHite girl who may be able to just up and move to these places and find a husband – she won’t have the racial aspect to overcome in these less diverse areas as much as a Black woman possibly would.

          I wasn’t aware the women in Colorado were not where its at. No wonder so many men avalable. Now i would definitley consider Colorado and i actually heard very good things about interracial dating there for Black women – its also a very beautiful place for sure.

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      • Zorro
        Sep 20, 2011 @ 06:44:06

        There aren’t. I am the last of my kind.

        Also, I liked Mark Slater’s “bombast” comment. I am a huge fan of the TV show Frasier. If you want to learn bombast, you can’t do better than Kelsey Grammer!

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        • Liza207
          Sep 20, 2011 @ 09:44:42

          Oh, so you’re a man’s man. The rugged outdoorsy type–a cowboy (god, I love cowboys). That is definitely hot.

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  15. Mark Slater
    Sep 19, 2011 @ 22:24:09

    I’m rather embarrassed to tell you, but my town is called “Wheat Ridge” — not lying!

    If you truly wanted a certain man fro the Mid-west, and he was certain you were the one for him, I would imagine he would be more than willing to confront his parents and contravene their wishes if necessary (Particularly if he in his 30s/40s and well along in life, career, etc)

    ON THE OTHER HAND, when you marry someone (and I think I know you well enough to assume you are a marriage minded lady) you are not merely marrying that other person, you are creating a NEW family; you are passing down that which was given to you and him by your perspective families (parents, grandparents…). Thus the parents wishes and expectations are important, and rightfully so.

    “Now i would definitley consider Colorado and i actually heard very good things about interracial dating there for Black women”
    They may be referring to Denver or Boulder, full of urban weenie types who don’t approach women. I imagine you want someone tough and rugged and manly, like the guys from Brighton or Loveland (THERE”S a name filled with promise) Of course, these guys tend to more traditional backgrounds (whose mothers’ are more apt to object to their sons’ choice of a Black woman as dating partner). What to do?

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    • Neecy
      Sep 20, 2011 @ 09:57:39

      Of course, these guys tend to more traditional backgrounds (whose mothers’ are more apt to object to their sons’ choice of a Black woman as dating partner). What to do?

      GO TO EUROPE. Young American attractive Black women able to travel and relocate would do best not wasting time and energy trying to focus on finding American husbands. Especially young Black women in their 20’s and college aged. Many are and will be crossing the big seas to Europe to find mates b/c they don’t have to or WANT TO put up with all the racial hang ups and baggage that comes with dating American men in general.

      I understand the whole family thing, and that is why I simply say it’s not worth marriageable Black women’s energy, effort or time in the long run. It will only cause problems later down the line. Its just not worth the time and energy to have to deal with a guys parents who won’t like you b/c of your race. I just think many American Black women would fare best going out of America to find love b/c typically European men don’t have the same racial hang ups and baggage as NOn Black/White American men.

      Not to mention America is very anti-Black American woman in many aspects and typically does not value us as women. A lot of Black women are looking into going to Europe. Me, at my age can go either way, but if I were younger I would certainly be looking for a husband in Europe. Also many Black American women are willing to move to these places to settle. There seems to be a greater appreciation for us in other countries outside of the USA. And those Black women who travel to Europe and come back to America, certainly say there is a difference in how we are seen and appreciated in other places.

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      • Liza207
        Sep 20, 2011 @ 10:22:21

        “Not to mention America is very anti-Black American woman in many aspects and typically does not value us as women.”

        Neecy, this will turn around the day BW start valuing themselves as women first. If one does not see his or her own worth, no one else will and that is the truth. And in fact, this could have been the case long ago but BW have been choosing to associate with the extremely dysfunctional “Black Community”.

        Moreover, yes, Europe is great place for many young women to explore their dating/mating options without having to deal with a lot of the interracial dating baggage mostly due to this countries sordid racial history.

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        • Neecy
          Sep 20, 2011 @ 10:31:27

          I agree Liza. When Black women do start valuing themselves others will join in. I’m not saying Europe is perfect, but Black women (especially younger ones still within the desirable ages for marriage) would be doing themselves a disservice by not exploring the opportunities overseas. I don’t think they should place all their eggs (no pun intended) in the American basket AT ALL.

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          • Liza207
            Sep 20, 2011 @ 11:00:15

            Neecy, I tossed my Black Card away years ago (although, I don’t think I was ever given one to begin with, lol). BW need to ditch those cards en masse.

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            • Neecy
              Sep 20, 2011 @ 17:57:42

              Mine has been tossed, burned, and shredded!

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            • Zorro
              Sep 20, 2011 @ 18:30:50

              Because she has my personal email address (which is my name@hotmail.com), Neecy knows my last name. Scots.

              Contrary to popular belief, Scots names do not mean “Son of…” and whatever. MacLeod = Son of Leod. MacIlveny = Son of Ilveny. MacArthur – Son of Arthur.

              Wrong!

              My family never had a clan. We were the only family in Scotland to be allowed to crown the Scots king or queen, or lead the Scots Army (suck it, Braveheart!).

              And do you know where the expression “to get off Scot free” came from? My family was the only family granted the right to exact revenge on a killing by killing the murderer and then paying a tax to the Abbey (church) to abrogate the right of the victim’s family to revenge. If they came after us, they were arrested and hung.

              Here’s the fun bit. My last name, Anglicized, translates to MacDubich, and means “he who is black or darkly colored.”

              I can go to my parents’ house and get a book of Scots heraldry and look up the citation.

              I’m a bro. And I never played the race card in my life. It’s always declined, anyway.

              MacMoose Game.

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  16. Marellus
    Sep 20, 2011 @ 01:14:42

    The tragedy of my life so far, is that all the women whom I have loved, have never loved me, and the women that loved me, I have never loved …

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  17. PermanentGuest
    Sep 20, 2011 @ 19:16:34

    “Nowadays, this happen a lot. So now women (thanks feminism!!) just throw their hands up and go after the guy they want.”

    Indeed. In a so-called age of equality, women would be expected to make a move as well. All the shy girls will invariably suffer because of this.

    “Or they will make the first move but are often trying to avoid being rejected or embarerresd b/c they themselves are shy.”

    But this is just part of the equation. You must admit that hardly do interested girls come of as..well, interested. As per my own experience and that of others, women who are into you either come off as overly shy, or try to put on some facade to try to act disinterested. The clueless are left confused and question themselves, while the discerning of us see right through it and choose not to give these girls the time of day (depending on the severity).

    “Wouldn’t it be easier if men were simply more aware of subtle or even straight forward female body language/cues that let him in on the fact that its okay to come up to her and make conversation showing an interest?”

    This is absolutely true for some guys.

    You have to realize that some guys are flirts, and enjoy “making someone’s day” with eye contact.

    Some are the proverbial fishermen, who, toss out the bait and see who bites [this works MUCH MORE than you would think]. You may argue that he is not doing his part as a man by not approaching first. Yet have you considered that the initial communication, [friendly smile, strong eye contact] not the approach, is the true initiation? Think about it. It would be a totally different situation if you approached him cold.

    Why does a man do this? Because he has options. Trust me, he’ll give you the time of day, since he is the one that initiated conversation [via eyes]. Your value is in your receptivity. You don’t have to walk up directly to him. You can increase proximity with him, and likely something will follow, if he pleases.

    Absolutely love the pic btw. Go get swept off your feet already.

    PG

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    • Neecy
      Sep 21, 2011 @ 09:25:12

      But this is just part of the equation. You must admit that hardly do interested girls come of as..well, interested. As per my own experience and that of others, women who are into you either come off as overly shy, or try to put on some facade to try to act disinterested. The clueless are left confused and question themselves, while the discerning of us see right through it and choose not to give these girls the time of day (depending on the severity).

      PG I have to agree. There are quite a bit of shy women out there and that doesn’t help the situation. I started taking notice of this myself when around a guy who may be signaling interest only for me to become so nervous I ruin it by not responding with the right body language or acting disinterested b/c I didn’t know what to do and didn’t want to be too obvious I was into him. But honestly I think this stems from a lack of confidence. Confident women don’t do this. I have noticed that now I have increased confidence I am less and less responding this way and giving back to him the signals.

      You have to realize that some guys are flirts, and enjoy “making someone’s day” with eye contact.

      Some are the proverbial fishermen, who, toss out the bait and see who bites [this works MUCH MORE than you would think]. You may argue that he is not doing his part as a man by not approaching first. Yet have you considered that the initial communication, [friendly smile, strong eye contact] not the approach, is the true initiation? Think about it. It would be a totally different situation if you approached him cold.

      ITA. Not every situation calls for a come on or getting to know someone. There is a LOT of fun in making eye contact, smiling and just having that with a cute guy out in public. Most guys who do this are very secure, confident and experienced with women and can do this. But I don’t feel this is always the case with more inexperienced, less confident shy guys who may want to actually at least *SAY* something. And that is who I am talking about. The guy who *WANTS* to move it further but doesn’t really know how to move it to the next step after getting the right signals and cues from the woman. He freezes up and just lets the opportunity pass him by.

      Absolutely love the pic btw. Go get swept off your feet already

      THANKS DAHLIN!! 😉

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      • Liza207
        Sep 22, 2011 @ 09:05:39

        One of the things that creep me out is when I encounter guys who will just stare at me with a blank expressions on their faces for a long time, as if, I’m supposed to say or do something first. If you are going to stare at a woman for a long while then you should smile or something. I know there is a study that says that women don’t like it when smile at them or some nonsense but I just find it beyond creepy. Moreover, these same guys will cop an attitude when I don’t engage them, Neecy, I told you about how these “shy” guys come at me in NYC. You would be surprised to hear what comes out of these “shy” guys’ mouths.

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        • Neecy
          Sep 22, 2011 @ 09:19:41

          LOL Yeah. I guess on the West Coast shy guys are a whole different breed than in NYC. The ones out here are usually cute and attractive and do smile at you and they also don’t STARE they just give you that sweet puppy dog look and for me that does it. LOL

          I havent come across the guys here that you come across in NY. I would be so disgusted.

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  18. KautiousNupe
    Sep 21, 2011 @ 11:20:35

    Interesting article. Discovered this blog today (think I saw you comment on Heartiste). I think a lot of this comes down to value. Just because a guy doesnt approach or gives you google eyes and all the right signals, his lack of approach DOES NOT make him shy. Thirsty guys have FLOODED the market with eye contact, attention to women’s physicaly attributes and approaching too much.

    I am very successful. I have a very nice body. No kids, No Jail record, all my teeth and I am in my late twenties. I have been told by women that I am incredibly attractive and that stumbling upon guys like me (who are uninvolved with basically no baggage other than sallie mae debt, lol) is rare. I know Im a catch and I play up on this. I “eye-fuck” women all the time and I will intentionally ask about the weather knowing darn well that you would prefer that I flirt more directly and personally. I think its fun. I know that I am of high value in the biological/mating/dating market and I feel no obligation to approach. Women are confused and frustrated by this because they cant understand the phenomenon of themselves finding you attractive and you NOT finding them equally attractive. My game is to NOT approach. I NEVER ask for digits. I NEVER buy drinks in the club. I also refuse to get caught up in boobies, booties and whatever weave she got popping that night. I talk about my favorite wines, handshake, talk about political news and say, “it was nice meeting you. I hope you enjoy the rest of your night” and slide right outta there. The look on a female face when I smoothly exit is priceless. If a woman does indeed directly approach me, I will consider her nothing more than a sexual conquest. (sounds contradictory, I know). Its all about the right balance and guys out here that are doing it ARE NOT thirst anyone. We dont have to be!

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    • Neecy
      Sep 21, 2011 @ 22:56:49

      Hi Kautious,

      While I know there are guys who like to flirt and simply play they are not representative of the “average” shy guy out there. The way you described yourself you seem to have a very high SMV and you are the exception than the rule. Most day to day guys don’t have extremely high SMV’s (or if they do they don’t realize it or know how to play it up to work in their favor). And many don’t have huge amounts of confidence with strange women in public they find appealing.

      Also, I come across guys like yourself many times and can sniff the shy guy out from the more “alpha” types who are experienced, confident and not looking to do much more than make eye contact and subtly flirt.

      often a woman knows a guy with a high SMV who is just looking to flirt rather than take things a step further. i admit this can be fun b/c as I stated to PG not every “eye fuk/googly eye” connection calls for a phone number or “get to know you better” situation.

      But women are a lot more aware of a man’s body language that reveals lack of confidence and also what he really wants. And I can tell the difference between the guys who really do clam up and don’t know what to say or do and who want to move things further from the ones who just want to have a brief fun moment. A shy guy (with whom this post is more directed to) signals in many ways that he has froze and can’t muster up confidence to take things a step further beyond the eye connection and smile. Confidence and/or lack thereof is very easy to read from anyone.

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  19. Firepower
    Sep 21, 2011 @ 11:35:16

    neeecy

    if you are a shy woman that doesn’t want to assume the “huntress” position,

    are you implying that your shy, or that you just prefer that postion?

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  20. Marellus
    Sep 21, 2011 @ 14:21:28

    Neecy.

    If you look at this discussion thread would you say this man was timid ?

    I know women play games, conduct shvit tests, and can be just plain be fvcked up in the head!!!!

    But I feel what this woman did to me was immoral or just plain wrong! I am not sure what her intentions behind it were so that’s where I am hoping your feedback will help. I like to try and learn/understand the trials and tribulations I go through with women so that I can grow.

    So here’s the deal…. I was out at a club… drunk… cold approached this HB 7 girl (actually she is 29) and number closed her. She didn’t answer my follow up text, but I called a few days later, ran my great phone game and basically had her IL in me up. She lived very close to me in my town too, so it would be a great booty call to have for a bit.

    So we arranged to meet for drinks…. both were attracted to each other… ended up going back to her car and hooking up (got to 2nd base)

    She then basically invited me over to her place a few days later. This was a week night so I told her I couldn’t stay long and had to work the next day. But anyway when I got there we watched some tv on her couch.. and before long we were hooking up again… This time I was had her shirt off, was sucking on her amazing titties and was having some awseome foreplay!

    She ended up giving me a hand job…. but then got really cuddely…. so I cuddled with her for a little.. but then said I had to go cause it was like 1 am and I had to work early the next day. She didn’t seem mad or anything…. Still continued to text me the next day… and even wrote me an email cause I said I would be away for the weekend.

    So the point is her IL was very high in me………

    So I texted her last monday and told her I got home from trip early… I had asked if I could borrow a tool she had.. she said sure and told me to come over….

    So I was back on her couch…. Started hooking up… this time I was fingering her… she let me do it… let me suck on those amazing titties… and started licking my ear and rubbing the head of my cvock….. well I was probably as hard as I have ever been in my life…..

    But she kept stopping midway through our hooking up and looking at the tv… I would start again….. She then whispered in my ear in a sexy voice “you are so hard….) I told her thats what she does to me.. we hooked up some more but again she kept stopping..

    Finally the stopping became more frequent and she said she was tired (the last time she said she never gets tired and can stay up later than me)…

    Well I am sorry but I was so hard… and horny… and frustrated… this girl literally just teased me!!! I got up put my sneakers on and basically left without hugging or kissing her….

    I am sorry for all of those who are thinking I shouldn’t have showed being upset….. but this is something physical she did to me…. she got me probably the hardest I have ever been in my life.. and then just decided to stop.. The last time I saw her she jerked me off completely… so the regression makes no sense!

    If she wanted to do a shvit test she could have flaked or just been cold to me from when I arrived… she didn’t have to do that to me!!! Tell me that is plain wrong please!

    Anyway before I left she asked if I needed the tool or if that was just an excuse to see her… I said I got it somewhere else don’t worry… and I just left…

    So I basically texted her the following night saying I hate the tv channel she was watching forever becuase of her. She texted back hours later asking why? I never answered…

    Yesterday which was a week later I texted her saying I felt something good with her but what she did was cruel. She hasn’t responded at all….

    Anyway I just want to know what your opinion is on this matter…. I know some will say it was a test and I shouldn’t have shown I was upset… but I am sorry… if someone stabs you with a knife you will show you are in pain… this is no different. I feel what she did was morally wrong…. This was physical pain she caused, fvck emotions

    And the best response to this was, for me, from this guy :

    Oh my god…stop whining. You sound like a spoiled 6-year-old who was told he can’t have a toy.

    She probably thinks YOU are the insane one…and based on your response to some simple coy shyness/hard-to-get play with this girl, I think she’s right.

    Based on how she was behaving, my GUESS is that you displayed complete ineptitude in how to lead in a sexual situation and stimulate a woman. She WAS into you, she TRIED to stimulate you, get you aroused, and hoped you would eventually take the lead like a man and connect with her on a sexual level to bypass her resistance. (because that’s how women work..read the DJ Bible)

    But instead, you were bewildered by the experience and lost confidence in yourself, and she sensed that and lost her arousal for you.

    And then you WHINED LIKE A B*TCH to her over text messages. You blamed HER for “screwing you over”.

    “I hate that TV station because of you! You didn’t treat me right!!” You sound like some EMO chump writing sappy poetry talking about how “evil girls tore your heart out and ripped it to shreds”. Gag. Are you SURE you didn’t accidentally reverse the digits when you typed in your age? This reminds me of the p*ssy sh*t I used to think to myself in middle-school. Maybe we should chug on down to namby-pamby-land, where MAYBE we can find some self-confidence for you, ya jackwagon!!

    OK it’s a little harsh…but it’s appropriate to the situation. Now I’m beginning to understand what women are telling me when they talk about all the “creepers” they meet on internet dating sites, who act all awkward, especially during the “close”.

    THIS is why good men and good women can’t find each other any more…because creepers like this learn enough “game” to get past a girl’s defenses and then, once they’re on the inside, start acting like crazies and scare them off. Sooner or later, ANYONE with a little bit of charm is “suspect” and girls are waiting for the inevitable neuroses to start showing.

    These “Don Juan skills” used to be a woman’s way to identify a confident man, because only confident, self-assured men could wield them with any skill. Now you have a bunch of amateurs running around in the field, dropping lines and playing head-games but with NOTHING to back it up. Amateurs who think they’re bad-arse because they found their father’s gun, a danger to themselves and those around them because they have power but never bothered to learn how to use it or be responsible with it.

    If you are going to go out there into the dating world and “call down the thunder”, you’d better be tough enough to stand and “reap the whirlwind”. It’s obvious you’re not right now…and you need to either man up and beciome strong enough to be a DJ, or you need to stop “frontin'” and go back to the AFC way of doing things.

    It’s your decision.

    So would you say this guy was timid Neecy ?

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    • Neecy
      Sep 21, 2011 @ 23:06:05

      No i would not say he was timid, just maybe young and somewhat immature and inexperienced. The guy sounds like a teenager to me. However, I thought the response (you listed after the original post) to him from the other guy was unecessarily cruel, judgemental and not very helpful at all.

      The guy was just asking what he possibly did wrong. overall it was a strange situation. The girl and the guy. Definiltey sounds like high school drama. LOL

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  21. Firepower
    Sep 26, 2011 @ 10:13:12

    Neecy

    is going to walk over and give you a hug.

    nice, but i think youd only come up to my navel. awkward.

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  22. Trackback: Dating Tips, Flirting Signals of Men and Women | Attract Pheromones

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