Come take a ride on the CYNICAL SIDE to nowhere!! ;)

Ladies and gentlemen step right up! Look at this new wonderful bicycle we have here.  *Neecy walking around showing off bike like the *MODELS*  on Price is Right*

Its called the CYNICAL CYCLE. This bike has all the bells and whistles. Ugly uneven flattened Wheels, hard metal seats with ripped and torn covers  with the springs popping out, one speed that goes reaaaally  reaaaaallly slow, brakes that don’t work, wonderful assortment of dark dull colors, and most of all,  it provides the bumpiest ride to NOWHERE!

Yes, the cynical cycle is not your ordinary bicycle b/c its stagnant and doesn’t move anywhere!  But you can drag and pull the bike with you when you want to go out to the park, beach or just throughout your neighborhood. What you will notice once you and your cynical cycle hit the public pavements, are people will be sure to cross the street to get away from you,  others will stop, make an unhappy face  and go the other way, birds and animals (and even cockroaches who don’t run from anything)  will run for shelter. Its great! So please, if you want to turn people, animals  (and even cockroaches who don’t run away from anything) and other things away, take a ride on the cynical cycle. You will forever be disappointed! No,  really,  you will!

************************************************************************************

Its prrretty darned easy these days to be cynical about a lot of things. One area of life where people tend to either be on one side of the extreme is when it comes to relationships with the opposite gender. I find people are either really optimistic or very cynical.

For the last two-three decades that I can remember, women and men have always had their little slogans towards the opposite sex. However, they usually don’t sound like this:

WOMEN:

“ALL MEN ARE WONDERFUL! *thumbs up*”

“GEEZ! *looking around* WHERE ARE ALL THE HORRIBLE MEN AT?!”

MEN:

“WOMEN WHO MARRY FOR MONEY AND RESOURCES ARE JUST…SUPERB! *thumbs up*”

“THERE ARE SIMPLY NOT ENOUGH BAD WOMEN TO GO AROUND! *angry face* DARN IT!”

***DISCLAIMER***

If by chance you are one of those billions of people who actually believe the above slogans, PLEASE leave this thread now! You have already been cleared and ready to go back out into society. No need to taint the untainted or jade the un jaded.

***END DISCLAIMER***

Okay where were we. Oh yeah, so the slogans we NORMALLY hear from men and women usually sound more like:

WOMEN:

ALL MEN ARE DOGS!”

“WHERE ARE ALL THE GOOD MEN AT!?”

MEN:

“ALL WOMEN ARE GOLDIGGERS OUT FOR A MAN’S MONEY!”

“WOMEN AREN’T WORTH THE TROUBLE THAT COMES WITH BEING WITH ONE!”

Did I leave any out?

Where have the latter slogans got men and women? Nowhere really. Instead of taking an honest look at the ways we can improve things, its simply a lot easier to point the finger and walk around giving every person of the opposite gender the side eye or clutching of the pearls move.

IF YOU DON’T HAVE ANYTHING NICE TO SAY, THEN DON’T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL!

Hmmm. In *some* cases yes. But in other cases, its applicable. If you are not hearing what frustrations people have about you or things you do that may turn people off or keep you from moving ahead  then how can you work to improve yourself to become a much more appealing person to others? Of course an individual has to be very discerning of whom is exclaiming these frustrations and if they are even applicable or whether they should be taken with a grain of salt or even acknowledged at all.

If you are on a job and your boss never gives you negative feedback or criticism (constructive of course) or tells you what you need to do to improve and be better would you ever be able to move up in that job? NO. Any boss that is only and always telling you what a good job you are doing, how everything that you do is PERFECT and right,  and never offers any valuable constrictive ways for you to improve,  is one who is trying to keep you from taking his/her job. Remember Neecy told ya so! 😉

You cannot improve if you don’t even know that there is a problem in the first place.  If we don’t know what the opposite sex’s gripes are about us, how can we even begin to determine if (1) they are somewhat true (2) and if we need to use those gripes as a way to improve our appeal to the opposite gender?

Now I understand not every gripe is real and often times are based solely in an individual’s own fabricated frustrations. But like stereotypes, I am sure gripes and exclamations of frustrations at things, places or people can hold *some* truth and may be worth examining.

 GENDER ACCOUNTABILITY & RESPONSIBILITY

Each gender should be doing their part to recognize their role in the downfall of relationships. That means that women and men need to look at themselves as a group and ask what changes they need to make on individual levels  to be more appealing to the opposite sex and to also get what we need out of relationships. This requires self acknowledgement and a willingness to change the things that we are possibly doing to contribute to the downfall  and that are working against us. When one gender  or either gender refuses to acknowledge THEIR ROLE in the downfall of relationships, then nothing will ever really be resolved. And as a result – CYNICISM prevails and becomes the standard for viewing the opposite sex and their value in relationships overall.

 INSANITY: DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AND EXPECTING A DIFFERENT RESULT~ Albert Einstein

Plainly put, if you are finding yourself constantly running into the same kinds of relationships with the same kinds of people then you will get the same results! Often times, water seeks its own level. The root of cynicism is usually an individual’s own bad choices and experiences. The fact is, there are a catrillbillsillion people on planet earth. That means not everyone is the same and we all have different values, morals and ways of doing and seeing. How on earth can it be possible that all men and all women are exactly the same and have the EXACT same motives all of the time? Sure there are basic biological things that make men alike and women alike, but our personalities as individuals are different and should come FIRST in determining whether a person is worth our time or energy – not simply saying “hmph! If it’s a man/woman they can’t be trusted. They are all _______________”.

Now there *are*  various types of personalities that have numbers of people who fit into that trait. You have slutty women, sexually promiscuous men; emotionally disturbed women and men with issues; stable & solid women and men with good values, standards and morals; etc.   The list goes on…

Basically everyone can pick and choose the “group” they want to continue exploring for relationships and interactions. Often times when people keep seeking the same thing in the opposite sex, its usually some shallow aspect that makes them tick and therefore they ignore all of the other components & important characteristics the person lacks to have a healthy relationship or interaction.

If you look within yourself, ask yourself what it is you truly want, how you plan to do the right things and make the necessary changes to get it, then you will most likely be more aware of who it is you should avoid and who it is you should seek as a partner. The more you do this, the less likely you will be cynical of the opposite sex .

The key to healthy happy relationships is not depending on the opposite sex to do their part the majority of the time, but to KNOW YOURSELF enough to know when a situation or dealing with a certain person  is not prime for your goals, sanity or happiness. Its easier said than done, but more people should ATTEMPT this. The fact that today men and women cannot have healthy relationships between each other is enough proof that there is not enough work being done on an individual level to determine what it *really*  requires from an individual to find what they want SUCCESSFULLY.

 WHEN KEEPING IT REAL CYNICAL GOES WRONG

What people often believe is that they are protecting themselves by being cynical all the time about the opposite sex. But what they are actually doing is hindering themselves to see the whole of a person as an individual and instead are solely judging them by their gender.

It’s like a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. If you look hard enough for something you will ALWAYS find it. If you only see and smell mold when you look at the opposite sex, then you won’t know what fresh looks and smells like.  There are many reasons to doubt the opposite sex when we look at society today. Women are off their rockers and so are men. There is nothing wrong with pointing out what it is about men or women that turns off or causes the opposite sex to distrust them. But I find cynical people can never really get to the root of the problem – which is usually THEMSELVES!  Also cynical people fail to see that those of the opposite gender who actually have the positive traits the cynical person doesn’t believe exists, will run and move away from the cynical person like the plague.  So in essence the cynical person never interacts with the good positive person of  the opposite sex b/c they are turning them away without even noticing they are there

It’s like this negative vibe/energy emanates from men and women who are constantly cynical about the opposite sex. No person of quality wants to be with or around someone like this.

Personally, I believe the root of cynicism with the opposite sex really stems from a person’s experiences in which they either didn’t realize they made a bad choice or they knew what they were getting into when they chose to be with or around that person that hurt them – but they still chose to take a *RISK* and the risk didn’t pay off in rewards but rather consequences.

 THE CYNICAL CYCLE TO – NOWHERE

If you choose to remain cynical about love and the opposite sex, Neecy is going to save you all the work, drama and effort. Just give up NOW! You will *NEVER* and I mean *NEVER* find happiness in a relationship being cynical about the opposite sex. NEVER. So, if being cynical is what makes you all warm and fuzzy on the insides, then by all means DO YOU, b/c that is who you will be doing every night for the rest  of your life!

I found the best way for myself to avoid being cynical about the opposite sex, is patience. They say patience is a virtue. I believe it is b/c people who wait and sacrifice to make sure they find the *right* person to occupy a certain space in their lives, usually don’t have to wallow in cynicism and distrust b/c they avoid persons and situations that would most likely bring it. Therefore, I’m now bobbing for apples fully aware there are some nasty bad apples in the barrel. But there are also good ones, and I will find my  good apple or as Zorro would say PINEAPPLE  😉

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67 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. MK
    Sep 29, 2011 @ 20:41:31

    I am usually optimistic, always PRAGMATIC, and rarely cynical.

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  2. Neecy
    Sep 29, 2011 @ 21:08:03

    Perfect! And I find guys do pragmatic much better than us gals. Of course we girls are just one step ahead of u when it comes to communicating 🙂

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  3. Marellus
    Sep 30, 2011 @ 04:48:29

    Why oh why do I get the impression that this was written with me in mind. It was well written though. Thanks Neecy.

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    • Neecy
      Sep 30, 2011 @ 08:18:52

      marellus,

      Do i sense a bit on cynicism towards Neecy that she would ever want to put any one person on the spot?? lol

      Of course this was written with you and everyone else on planet earth in mind, b/c how often do people become cyncical about love? ALL THE TIME

      So my dear, you are cerainly not alone 😉

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  4. MK
    Sep 30, 2011 @ 05:28:59

    Law of Attraction would be the metaphysical rule explaining this stuff. Optimists send out positive energy and attract people to them. Cynical people repel others through the aura of negativity (does not even have to be spoken most of it can be sensed non verbally)

    Question: Is it cynical to say a man has to be very careful when choosing if he should get married and that due to the law of the lands and the current state of affairs he is probably better off not?
    Some may take it as cynical but I consider that pragmatic since a long term relationship fills nearly all the needs of a marriage (except perhaps religious ones depending on the person’s beliefs)

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    • Zorro
      Sep 30, 2011 @ 05:37:09

      When I meet a man and woman who are (not married) exquisitely paired, I have a case of envy that borders on hero worship. But I am very well-versed in family law, and I would rather rip my eyes out with salad forks than get legally married.

      1. the presumption of paternity. Your wife can cheat on you, get pregnant, and YOU have to pay (if the child is born with special needs, for the rest of your life!). This can easily mean a bill over the years that comes to over a quarter million dollars!
      2. No fault divorce. You can be the best husband or wife you can be, and the other person can still throw you under the bus. If you are the husband, she gets cash and prizes for dumping you. Yeah, honey, I’m leaving you but not your money!
      3. Community property. Relevant in a small number of marriages, this means in 95% of divorces she now owns half of what you had before being married.
      4. Alimony. You are fucking kidding me. This is something from the 1800s. It has NO place in modern marriage.

      For men, marriage is a lottery to be raped in court.

      Fuck marriage. If you doubt it, read Taken Into Custody by Professor Stephen Baskerville.

      Marriage has become a financial device to shift wealth from the male to the female, and us guys are onto the scam.

      Bye bye, marriage!

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      • Neecy
        Sep 30, 2011 @ 09:02:43

        Zorro,

        I understand the laws can and do screw men. It pisses me off that my dad has to pay a stupid wench the rest of her life for her OWN choices that not only ruined HER life but her children’s lives as well.

        However, women *are* most vulnerable in marriages b/c they have children, are likely to lose SMV the longer they are married, and if the husband decides to just up and walk, she will have a tougher time finding a job to help provide for herself and offspring b/c she will be much older and have less marketable experience (if she was a stay at home mother). So I’m sorry but there needs to be laws to protect women who give their bodies, time and life to men who can easily walk away from a marriage ANNYTIME he feels he wants someone younger, hotter and and tighter.

        Now for women who SEEK DIVORCE for stupid reasons? the laws need to be changed to make sure these women understand that making such a choice will not render her any rewards in the form of alimony. or other property agreements.
        Also, I don’t get this argument about a woman can cheat and have a baby by another man and there is nothing a husband can do about it. Uh that is what paternal DNA exams are for – that a man at any given point can demand that a child have a dna test to determine if it was his.

        However what men never discuss with marriage laws etc., is that they protect women b/c its verry verry easy for a man to walk out on his wife, kids and family for some young tail that comes along. It happens quite often. OR a man may cheat on his wife during marriage and expect her to stick around and put up with it. What happens a lot of times is that men who walk out on their wives, these women are way beyond the stages of having any SMV left to find another quality mate, they often have had children with these husbands and many of them will not. And b/c of that women are more vulnerable in marriages than men and thus why laws would more likely seek to help support women.

        I definitely agree the laws need to be revamped and changed b/c often times it’s the wrong women getting all these resources when they don’t deserve it. But a lot of women do benefit and should receive these resources b/c they did their parts as wives and mothers and got left in the cold or mistreated by their husbands. No woman should have to stay in an abusive marriage or marriage full of infidelity on her husband’s part and not receive any kind of support afterwards for it.

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        • Liza207
          Sep 30, 2011 @ 09:21:03

          In addition, how about the women who give up their jobs and careers to be stay at home moms sometimes at the request of her husband and gets left holding the bag when he decides she not what he wants anymore. This has left many women struggling financially, especially if she signed a pre-nuptial agreement or he has his money hidden in some LLC. Some men have become very smart about hiding their asset from their families. Many women do not make out well after divorce. By the way, divorce laws vary from state to state.

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          • Neecy
            Sep 30, 2011 @ 09:38:07

            EXACTLY Liza. IMO women do have more to lose than the men in marriages and divorce. A lot of times women are left struggling after a divorce and people and men do not ever want to say this or acknowledge the financial toll it takes on a woman who is a single parent.

            As a Whole the men may lose some of his assists in a divorce but he should if the woman had his kids, took care of the household, fulfilled his sexual needs and gave her time and support to keep the family together. Also women who marry will most likely find it very difficult later on to find another man who can or will provide for her an another man’s offspring from another marriage, unless he too was divorced. if he had that much in assets the first place, the likelihood is he will be able to bounce back financially.

            But women? Never. if she was a woman that stayed home to raise the kids and be there for her husband that means she was NOT working. As a result what kind of job can she get after a divorce working in a job market with people who have actual work history and experience? Men with higher status and resources are more likely to cheat and have infidelity and they should PAY for it. And as you said a lot of men today are hiding their assets to keep them from the women they married in case of a divorce.

            It seems men focus solely on the material resources they lose in divorce (something that can easily be gained back) and not the emotional toll it takes on women and children who end up in divorce. There is more to life than just material resources and if a man knows he didn’t uphold his end of the bargain in a marriage then he deserves to have to share that with the woman that gave all of her time, body and life to please him.

            The laws protect women b/c its clear women are the most vulnerable and easily tossed aside after divorce and having kids.

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            • Liza207
              Sep 30, 2011 @ 09:48:11

              It is a myth. In the book, “Smart Women Finish Rich” by David Bach, dispels the myth that women make out like bandits in divorce. It is scary what happens to some of these women after they have been toss to the side by their husbands.

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              • Neecy
                Sep 30, 2011 @ 10:08:16

                I believe it Liza. My mom struggled after she and my dad divorced. So much that I had to end up living with my dad and grandmother for most of my years. I remember the struggle my mom went through and LIVED it with her for 2 years. She even sacrificed to pay for me to go to catholic and lutheran schools b/c of the neighborhood she had to live in due to struggling and she didn’;t want me in any of the surrounding public schools. but she bust her butt to make sure I went to the better shcools which at that time were lutheran and catholic. but it got so hard for her that she eventually had to ask my grandmother to take me and then my dad came and got me and I lived with him most through elementary and through high school.

                I see what happens to women in divorce b/c i saw my mom and other women go through it.

                Just last week i was out and this Asian woman who is still married (in her late 60’s) and her friend were telling me how women also need to keep their resources seperatley from their husbands b/c she said she saw so many of her friends end up in divorce with NOTHING and struggling. She was like “don’t be stupid! Always have and keep your seceret stash b/c you know these men these days want younger women and will leave you with nothing!” LOL

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                • Liza207
                  Sep 30, 2011 @ 10:31:06

                  My mother had it hard too for a couple of years after a divorce with three of us. She remarried after two years in her early thirties.

                  Wow. I always went to Catholic schools: elementary, high school and College.

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                  • Neecy
                    Sep 30, 2011 @ 10:39:56

                    I believe it. Good for y9ur mom for bouncing back. i loved going to catholic and luthern schools. Some of my fondest memories. Unfortunatley, my dad and grandmother didn’t continue that tradition so after 3rd grade i was never in anymore catholic schools.

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                    • Liza207
                      Sep 30, 2011 @ 11:28:30

                      In my opinion , guys who use the excuse of getting taken financially in the event of a divorce should just admit that they are not interested in marriage and just call it a day. Who cares? It’s their life.

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                    • Neecy
                      Sep 30, 2011 @ 12:41:54

                      ITA Liza. men who do use finacial reasons as not to get married just don’t want to marry. there are still men who have ample amounts of resources and understand the risks of getting married but they do it b/c they want to do it. There are simply risks in life and for some marriage is worth it b/c marriage also has its benefits and rewards just like its downfalls for both parties involved.

                      The fact is most people marry b/c they want kids and kids deserve to be in a stable committed union between thier parents.

                      Also, I find men who don’t place such emphasis on the material things they have are the men who seem to always be on their feet and always bounce back. I remember one of the creators of Simpsons was married to Jennifer Tilly and apparently she got like half of everything he had. I remember him joking about it and shrugging it off as no big deal b/c he knew deep down he would be able to make all that and then some back – which he did.

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                  • Zorro
                    Sep 30, 2011 @ 12:23:26

                    I went to Catholic school until the 3rd grade. I don’t miss the Nuns at all, but I sure miss the sheperd’s pie!

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        • Zorro
          Sep 30, 2011 @ 12:21:12

          South Korea had a divorce rate of 1%. 1%!!!…until 1990.

          In 1990 they changed the law. Now it has a divorce rate of 45%.

          What changed? It used to be, when a woman filed for a no-fault divorce, she forfeited her right to take the children. If you leave your husband, but he is not abusing you, you lose your kids.

          Now it’s 45%.

          Women press for marriage, and women file over 2/3 of divorce actions. Women love to get married. But they do not love BEING married.

          Excuses. Excuses. Excuses. Marriage needs to be legally redrafted so it makes sense to both parties. Right now, it is a moral sewer.

          And no, Liza, I don’t want to be married, and I don’t deceive women on that score. I just laugh at their husbands when they end up with bloody assholes for falling for a ridiculous 19th-Century tradition that has no place in modern society.

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          • Liza207
            Sep 30, 2011 @ 12:55:44

            Zorro, you don’t strike me as the type of guy that would decieve a woman in that way, but there are some real scumbags out there that do and they will string a woman along for years if she let’s him.

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          • Neecy
            Sep 30, 2011 @ 13:00:37

            Could it be Zorro that the reason so many women file for divorce is b/c men stop holding up a certain end of the bargain once married? Maybe men get too comfy and stop being the partner that they need to be to keep their SO happy?

            There are so many reasons why women file for divorce these days. i’m sure if they were happy they wouldn’t leave these marriages. Granted a lot of women also have dumb reasons as well. but that doesn’t mean all women who divorce are doing it without cause or reason.

            No matter how horrible you feel marriage is, its still the best union for children to be reared and raised. And a lot of people don’t simply focus on material things as to why they avoid marriage. Some men want to be married b/c they believe in the union and want their offspring to have the best chances at stability by marrying the woman they love and pro create with. Some men do understand the laws and possibilities and are not bothered by it and understand there is a risk in everything.

            People who invest in the markets are running the risk of losing everything despite the rewards that can come with it. that’s just life! People who marry do it b/c or them the benefits outweigh the bad, and because children fare best in these kinds of unions with their parents.

            Not to bring this up, but i do remember you mentioned this to Liza in some earlier threads about how your family was a bit un traditional or something to that affect? Could this be Maybe why you have such feelings against marriage?

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            • Zorro
              Sep 30, 2011 @ 13:20:19

              We can go on this “his fault/her fault” merry-go-round until the wheels fall off. I have no doubt many men fuck up their marriages and many women fuck up their marriages. I am not talking about men or women. I am talking about THE LAW.

              http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/2011/09/25/

              Yeah. It’s a cartoon, but the facts are true.

              I don’t have a problem with marriage. I have a problem with the legal structure of marriage as it currently exists. Human society requires a structure to support reproduction and the successful raising of children. Marriage is that structure, and today marriage is a piss-hole.

              Got nothing against women. Got BIG SOMETHINGS against lawyers and asshole legislators!

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              • Neecy
                Sep 30, 2011 @ 13:51:36

                Ok now we agree. Its the laws tht need to be revamped to work for both parties.

                And I know you are not cynical against women so you don’t even have to say that. 🙂

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            • Matt
              Oct 02, 2011 @ 16:29:01

              Neecy,

              Two things I want to mention.

              First, men are still marrying because most men do not take the time to research what divorce will mean to them. Most men do not believe that the LAW is written the way it is. So, they have a sort of “blissful ignorance” that shields them from reality. This is starting to change. Find the marriage statistics for the past twenty years and you’ll find that marriage rates are declining at the rate of about 1% per year. Men are starting to figure out that they are getting a raw deal and are starting to take steps to protect themselves from it. That means interacting with women only for the necessities (It’s left as an exercise for the reader as to what the “necessities” are ;)). Or, google “Marriage Strike”.

              Second, the marriage contract has changed drastically. Marriage 1.0 is what marriage was originally. This meant that the man essentially “sold” his ability to provide for a family to his wife. The woman “sold” her ability to bear kids. Under this arrangement, if the woman left the man, he kept the kids since that was his due. If he left his wife, she kept the kids AND got provisions in the form of alimony since that was her due. Those were the terms. There were consequences to leaving the other party. Since most men want kids (whether they admit it or not), it benefited the man to marry. Since most women want to eat, it benefited her.

              But now we have Marriage 2.0. The man is still expected to “sell” his ability to provide for his wife and family. BUT, the woman is no longer expected to “sell” her ability to bear kids. Instead, she sells her ability to grant sex. Though, even that’s not guaranteed now. So, the man gets to provide and the woman is expected to do nothing. If the man leaves, the woman STILL gets a guaranteed income (alimony) regardless of whether she is making enough money to support herself (and the kids) or not. BUT, if the woman leaves, she STILL keeps the kids, she STILL gets alimony AND, if there are kids, she gets child support. Again, regardless of whether she needs it or not. The man gets to pay for a very long time, loses his stuff and wealth, and, as an added bonus, gets the prospect of going to jail if he CAN NOT pay. Not won’t pay, can’t pay. In this situation, the woman is REWARDED for divorcing and breaking a home and family. Yet, the man is penalized HEAVILY if he does the same.

              I’m ignoring the religious or companionship aspects that marriage is supposed to include. I’m simply going based on the contractual, legal aspects of the marriage.

              Viewed in this light, what do men have to gain by marrying? If women want men to start marrying again, the laws need to change back to something that benefits men (which will probably never happen), or at the very least, penalizes the one who left. No-fault divorce MUST die.

              Also, women need to start providing some benefit to a would-be husband beyond the possibility of having sex. The question I asked my last ex (the one who pulled the LJBF nonsense) was, “If your Prince Charming showed up right now, why would he chose you instead of somebody else?” She had no answer to that question. If a woman doesn’t have an answer to that, then she needs to find one. Otherwise, why would her potential husband want to stay with her?

              My question is and has always been, if women fare so badly after a divorce, then why do they keep doing it? The vast majority of divorces are filed by women, when there is no abuse present. Often, they can’t even give a reason beyond “I was bored”. So, if they know that they are likely to do so badly, why keep doing it?

              One other question. Why are “women more vulnerable in marriages”? I thought we were equal in all ways. “Anything a man can do, I can do” and all that. If that’s true, why would men be any better off? Why would her age or looks matter? Men should not be paying a woman for her “lost time” spent with her husband. She was compensated for that already (she was given his time and resources while they were married). It seems to me that either we’re equals in all ways, in which case no special protections should be offered to women, or we aren’t equals, in which case the current laws exists solely to handicap men. Which is it? The former is what Feminists asked for, so they should delight in their new found rights and responsibilities; the latter means that women are privileged as hell right now and are simply oppressing men, in which case they should be opposed.

              I have to point out, this is coming from a man who WANTS to marry and have children. But it makes very little logical sense to do so.

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              • Neecy
                Oct 03, 2011 @ 08:15:23

                MATT,

                we agree that if the laws are not working in equal favor for men and women then they need to be reviewed and revamped to make it more desirable for both parties.

                But the issue I think so many guys who say that women divorce for no reason is that many of you are overlooking the fact that women are more likely to end a failing relationship unlike males. Men seem to believe that a woman should stay in a stale or dead end marriage b/c THEY likely would. If a woman feels a man has checked out or is not holding up his end of the bargain in a marriage should she stay? I agree that counseling and other things are in place before going for actual divorce, but I am almost positive in many cases women who are happy would not seek divorce. Men have a tendency to get comfortable and stop doing their parts in marriages once they marry a woman. That is not fair.

                Also, seriously how many men are in jail b/c they lost a job and couldn’t pay child support? REALLY? I highly doubt this is even so prominent that its worth mentioning. I believe the law is strict on men b/c there are MNORE MEN who are not holding down their part when it comes to taking care of their children. There needs to be strict laws in place for this. I can almost bet there are 10 fo9ld the amount of men getting away with not taking care of their kids than ones sitting in jail b/c they lost a job and couldn’t pay. The fact is most men would not pay child support if they were not made to. Once men move on and start other families, the kids they created with a divorced wife are often forgot about unless they are living with him. THAT is why so many women struggle as single mothers – b/c the fathers are not holding up their end of the bargain in financially taking care of their kids.

                The fact is a lot of men know the risks of marriage. THAT is why men are not so quick to just up and marry most women. Men marry b/c they want FAMILIES. They don’t sit and comb through laws b/c maybe that stuff doesn’t really matter to them at the end of the day. Marriage is a RISK for both parties b/c it’s a long terms agreement. If a man has all these questions and issues with marriage laws he simply DOES NOT WANT TO GET MARRIED at the end of the day. Men are much more aware of how they can lose assets in divorce and still marry b/c they see the benefits outweigh the risks in their eyes.

                Last I want to say. For those of you who are up in arms against the marriage laws, I would hope you would be UPFRONT to any women you are considering to seriously date and tell them how you feel. The fact is no woman of child bearing ages/years will stick around in a relationship with a man who has no plans on marrying her. I just hope those of you who feel this way are truly upfront. I would like to see how many young child bearing aged women would settle for LTR’s and pro creation vs. marriage. NOT MANY unless she doesn’t want kids.

                The issue with marriage and divorce today is not really the laws. If people chose their marriage partners much better than they do these days, there would be little divorces to worry about his. The fact is men and women these days choose marriage partners that they lust for. When it dies off then the man withdrawls and the woman gets bored b/c her husband stop paying attention to her. The fact is its not the laws that are the problem it’s the PEOPLE WHO MARRY EACH OTHER that are the problem. If one chooses who they marry WISELY and stop with all the silly superficial reasons for marrying a person, they’ d have longer lasting marriages and happier stable families.

                Also men need to look at themselves and ask what their roles are in failing marriages and why women are seeking so many divorces. I highly doubt its always b/c these women are “bored”. Men seem to feel women should stay in relationships and marriages in which they have stopped doing their parts to keep their women happy. It doesn’t wok that way.

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                • Liza207
                  Oct 03, 2011 @ 12:27:36

                  Neecy,

                  This is true and as you indicated–divorce laws are somewhat archaic. They do need to recognize that each law is created and enforced for a reason. Lawmakers did not just pull divorce laws out of the air. There is a reason why they are structured the way they are—to protect women and children who the most vulnerable in this society. Men failing to recognize this are being extremely short-sighted and have made the right decision to forgo marriage.

                  With that said, conversations like this always makes me give men the side-eye because it is always about blaming women and more blaming women without any thought of them ever looking at how they may have contributed to the negative outcome in their relationships with women. To me, it just shows a lack of maturity and not having a sense of accountability.

                  Lastly, people who are not interested in getting married should just keep it to themselves (except for when they meet someone they are interested in romantically), if you are not interested in marriage then why rain on some other person’s “I want to get married” parade.

                  I don’t want to have children (never did) but I don’t go around bashing motherhood and children, especially not in the presence of those I know who already have children or those who want to have children—just because I don’t desire having children what right do I have to rub it in their faces. However, if I am asked about why I do not want children (which really is not anyone’s business) I simply say, “becoming a mother is just not for me” and I am done.

                  I feel that if one is truly satisfied with the decision of not wanting something or not wanting to do something, then there is no need to keep trumpeting it and making negative statements about it—it is as though misery is seeking company.

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                  • Neecy
                    Oct 03, 2011 @ 13:18:37

                    Yes Liza and that is the key – the marriage and divorce laws exist for a reason. They didn’t just come out of thin air to make it harder on men. MEN have a tendency to not uphold child support unless they are legally binded to do so. As you said women and children are the, most vulnerable and that is why the laws exist to protect women and children.
                    males also had a hand in creating and upholding these laws b/c they seemed to understand this. It really makes me wonder how some men can be so short sighted or in denial about why these laws exist. There is a reason and if they don’t like it then they should JUST not get married. But what they will find and have to deal with is – No DECENT QUALITY young woman of child bearing ages who wants a family is going to be some baby momma for a guy who doesn’t want to get married b/c he’s worried about is “financial possessions”.

                    No decent quality young woman of child bearing ages is going to go for the LTR route in which she pops out kids and *plays the role of a wife* and mother without the covenant and protection of marriage. She’d be a FOOL to do so. Men want to not have to pay ANYTHING to women and children. And that is what this is all about. Holding onto everything he had before entering a marriage. Nope. Doesn’t work that way. When a woman marries she gives up herself (maybe not material possessions) but that is the tradeoff. She bears his children and spends her time and womanhood with him during hew prime years. If he chooses to leave her after that, she is SOL unless there are laws to provide for her and her children. that enough is the tradeoff. Any man mumbling and groaning about marriage laws and material possessions he may lose will signal to a woman that he will probably be a dead beat dad later on down the line if he is so stuck on his material possessions and keeping them as opposed to making a decision to be in a marriage b/c that is where his HEART is..

                    despite that fact, men still marry. A 1% decrease in marriage is simply not on the radar. Most people marry b/c they recognize they want stable families. Anyone who is thinking more about their financial material possessions and losing such EVEN before getting married should just do themselves and any future EX WIVES and children a favor and avoid marriage. They are placing a dollar sign on a union that is much more than that. Like I said, many men are aware of the losses they can incur during a marriage and feel it’s worth the tradeoff. If some men don’t then fine why try to rain on another man’s parade? If you made a bad choice in mate getting married then that is on YOU. If people made much more solid choices in marriage partners they wouldn’t even be worrying about divorce.

                    Seth Rogan to shit from Dave Lettermen or one of the late night hosts b/c he recently married without a pre nup. You know what he said when he was asked why he did that? He said If someone is worried about that then they should not get married. I chose to marry this person and I really don’t care about the stuff that doesn’t matter. Something to that affect. There are just some men where that doesn’t bother them. They feel they made a solid choice in mate and are willing to simply part ways with material possessions if need be.

                    Its proven that if a man had any real material possessions going into a marriage to begin with, the likihood is he will be able to bounce back even after a divorce where he may have lost some of it.

                    And I also don’t get this push to try to make other men who still want to marry and may not simply place so much emphasis on his MATERIAL POSSESSIONS to make them feel stupid or dumb. HUH? In any society where there are lack of marriages that society is chaotic.

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                    • Liza207
                      Oct 03, 2011 @ 18:55:21

                      “No decent quality young woman of child bearing ages is going to go for the LTR route in which she pops out kids and *plays the role of a wife* and mother without the covenant and protection of marriage.”

                      Neecy, G. Clooney comes to mind. He has been searching for a young hot woman who will just accept a LTR but he can’t hold on to them. They are young and attractive and they want to get married. He would probably do better to date a woman closer to his own age but you know that won’t happen, so his relationships will continue to fail. Who knows maybe he will find that young hot woman who doesn’t want marriage and children but you know she will probably be a train wreck.

                      A man can give a woman all the materials possessions he can afford (i.e., expensive clothing, trips, spending accounts, even co-habituate with her and so on) but what a woman wants most and what would truly say to her how much a man really loves and cherishes her is when that man gives her his last name. All the material shit means absolutely nothing in the end–especially if she truly loves him

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                    • Neecy
                      Oct 03, 2011 @ 20:40:47

                      G. Clooney comes to mind. He has been searching for a young hot woman who will just accept a LTR but he can’t hold on to them. They are young and attractive and they want to get married. He would probably do better to date a woman closer to his own age but you know that won’t happen, so his relationships will continue to fail. Who knows maybe he will find that young hot woman who doesn’t want marriage and children but you know she will probably be a train wreck.

                      EXACTLY. Young attractive women are not going to settle for being some baby momma in an non protected LTR. Smart young attractive women know they have a window and if they want families they know they cannot waste time with a guy who is not going to marry them or is trying to drag things out or make her settle for a LTR with no real commitment or protections to his children or her as his wife. Also, why should a woman bear children for a man who won’t take her to the alter? That’s pure foolishness. I don’t blame those women one bit.

                      A man can give a woman all the materials possessions he can afford (i.e., expensive clothing, trips, spending accounts, even co-habituate with her and so on) but what a woman wants most and what would truly say to her how much a man really loves and cherishes her is when that man gives her his last name. All the material shit means absolutely nothing in the end–especially if she truly loves him

                      EXACTLY!

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                • Matt
                  Oct 03, 2011 @ 21:46:22

                  Neecy, Liza,

                  I just want to make a few points. Then I’m bowing out of this topic like Zorro did. I’m not sure that I can actually articulate any better why marriage makes little sense to men anymore.

                  Again, this is from a man that WANTS marriage.

                  Point 1:
                  “to protect women and children who the most vulnerable in this society”

                  This is complete garbage. CHILDREN are the most vulnerable in society. They are younger, nowhere near as strong as an adult “male or female” and simply do not have the intellectual abilities to compete against adults. They need to be protected and allowed the freedom to develop and mature.

                  However, women are not vulnerable. We’ve had fifty plus years of Feminism telling us that women are just as capable as men are in every single aspect of life. So, if men are not given special protections, then why should women get them? We’re all equals, so fair’s fair.

                  Point 2:
                  “this always makes me give men the side-eye because it is always about blaming women and more blaming women without any thought of them ever looking at how they may have contributed to the negative outcome in their relationships with women”

                  *sigh* Why is it whenever a man points out that women might be at fault for something this old canard of “the men are always blaming the women” comes out? Right now, the vast majority (70%+) of divorces are filed by women. Less than 5% of those is due to abuse. Given those numbers, I’d say that women are to blame. But, let’s examine your idea that men never analyze their contribution to the destruction of a relationship/marriage.

                  As much as I despise Game, it’s very existence is the result of the question “Why don’t women like me?” That so many men seriously try to learn it and practice it makes me think that men spend a lot of time wondering what their contribution to failed marriages/relationships was. The book “No More Mr. Nice Guy” by Dr. Glover asks the same question. Men do this constantly. We just don’t announce it.

                  Point 3:
                  “Also, seriously how many men are in jail b/c they lost a job and couldn’t pay child support? REALLY? I highly doubt this is even so prominent that its worth mentioning.”

                  It doesn’t matter what the raw numbers are. The fact is that there is a legal structure to make it happen. Read about the Bradley Amendment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Amendment

                  Start reading the stories of men that are entering Family Court and you’ll understand why men are so reluctant to marry and have children.

                  “I believe the law is strict on men b/c there are MNORE MEN who are not holding down their part when it comes to taking care of their children.”

                  Cite your sources. What you and Liza are saying here sounds a lot like the stuff that is oft repeated, but never checked.

                  Every divorced man I have ever met is working his ass off in order to make his child support. He is not fighting the need for support. What he is usually fighting for is visitation rights.

                  I want to let you in on a secret. A man who skips out on his child support, and is found out by other men, is not treated well. Other men do not look kindly on a man who tries to avoid his responsibilities and they view taking care of your kids as the biggest responsibility a man can have.

                  Also, read this: http://entertainment.salon.com/2001/08/09/black_fathers/singleton/#comments

                  Point 4:
                  “Anyone who is thinking more about their financial material possessions and losing such EVEN before getting married should just do themselves and any future EX WIVES and children a favor and avoid marriage.”

                  This is a fallacy and an attempt at shaming men. Using only emotions when undertaking as big a decision as marriage is madness. I see nothing wrong with having contingency plans in the event of bad stuff happening, ESPECIALLY now. It has nothing to do with putting a dollar amount on a human life as it does in making sure you won’t be left broke and homeless if something goes wrong. As we’ve said, people now seem to get married for all the wrong reasons (this applies to both men and women). Why should they have to pay for that for the rest of their life?

                  Point 5:
                  “Its proven that if a man had any real material possessions going into a marriage to begin with, the likihood is he will be able to bounce back even after a divorce where he may have lost some of it.”

                  It is not the man’s responsibility to pay for his now ex-wife. If he can build himself back up, there is no reason on this earth why she can’t do the same. Again, either we’re equals or we aren’t. You can’t have both.

                  Point 6:
                  “I also don’t get this push to try to make other men who still want to marry and may not simply place so much emphasis on his MATERIAL POSSESSIONS to make them feel stupid or dumb.”

                  It’s not making them feel dumb or stupid. It’s making them aware of what they are doing. It’s fair warning. If the man in question still wants to get married, then he should. But this is not a decision that should be entered into lightly. Both parties, male and female, should know EXACTLY what they are signing on for.

                  Point 7:
                  “It seems men focus solely on the material resources they lose in divorce (something that can easily be gained back) and not the emotional toll it takes on women and children who end up in divorce.”

                  Wrong. Men commit suicide in surprisingly high numbers following a divorce and the removal of their children. That by itself shows that men are severely emotionally battered when they are divorced. When men put a high value on material goods, they go out to get that stuff back. They don’t kill themselves.

                  They also tend to fight for visitation rights with their kids. If they truly did not care about the toll a divorce takes on their children, then why would they fight to visit them?

                  If men are willing to stay in a relationship longer than women are, does that mean that men simply value commitment more? Did the women not value the emotional toll it takes on the husband and children when she left?

                  “There is more to life than just material resources”
                  True.

                  “and if a man knows he didn’t uphold his end of the bargain in a marriage”

                  Define the man’s end of the bargain in a marriage. I’d bet good money that the wife’s definition and most men’s aren’t the same. If that’s true, then men don’t “know he didn’t uphold his end”.

                  “then he deserves to have to share that with the woman that gave all of her time, body and life to please him.”

                  No, he doesn’t. She was compensated already while she was living with him. She deserves nothing more after she leaves. His children do because he’s their father, but the ex-wife deserves nothing more than she already got.

                  Also, why is the time and body that his now ex-wife gave him even an issue? He gave her the exact same things. Does he get compensated too?

                  Point 8:
                  “If a man has all these questions and issues with marriage laws he simply DOES NOT WANT TO GET MARRIED at the end of the day.”

                  Wow, this is arrogant. I will say again: I WANT TO GET MARRIED. I WANT TO DEVOTE MY LIFE AND EVERYTHING I HAVE AND AM TO ONE WOMAN FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE AND FOR ALL TIME. But I also need to make sure that I’m not completely euchred should something go wrong.

                  Stop trying to insinuate that there are no good reasons for a man to be hesitant to sign a marriage contract. In its current form, marriage looks much different to a man than it does to a woman. Anybody who does not fully understand the scope of what they are signing on to has no reason to complain when it bites them later on.

                  Point 9:
                  “The fact is no woman of child bearing ages/years will stick around in a relationship with a man who has no plans on marrying her.”

                  You would be surprised the number of women that don’t understand what they have until it’s gone. If the PUAs are anything to go by, then many women have no problem squandering their time with men they know that can’t keep.

                  Point 10:
                  “Men seem to feel women should stay in relationships and marriages in which they have stopped doing their parts to keep their women happy. It doesn’t wok that way.”

                  But that’s how it works for men. If a man decides to leave, whether his wife has abdicated her role or not, he forfeits his kids, his wealth and possibly everything else he has. Statistically, when there were consequences to leaving, divorces were much lower. Right now, men are penalized for leaving, so we don’t. Women are rewarded for leaving, so they do.

                  There’s a lot more that I could comment on, but those are the main points.

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                  • Neecy
                    Oct 03, 2011 @ 22:18:03

                    Matt,

                    I appreciate your response and I do understand many of the points. I guess we’ll all have to agree to disagree on this topic. No love lost I still think you’re a great guy who will make a woman very happy someday. But I do feel you have way more negative views about marriage than positive ones, and I’m not so sure that you would be happy being married with these ideas? I could be wrong but it seems you are more focused on what can go wrong than what can go right? You seem extremely intelligent and very aware of what it is that you need in a mate. I believe if people picked and chose their mates more carefully divorce would be highly unlikely.

                    I just think that men are not as foolish as you believe when it comes to the losses they can incur financially and materially in divorces. Some *JUST* don’t care or place emphasis on that. They just go for it b/c that is what *THEY* want. Its like anything in life where you know the risks if things don’t work out. You either accept possible risks and go for what you want, or you simply avoid the risk altogether. Marriage is no different. But when it gets to a point a man is more focused on his losses in a possible divorce than simply trying to be positive about going into a marriage and focusing on choosing the *RIGHT* woman in which divorce is unlikely, then I feel its not the best move for him.

                    The fact is, when a man chooses to enter into marriage, anything he came to the table with is no longer just *HIS*. Its his to share with his wife and future offspring during the course of the marriage. Anything he gained during the marriage is considered THEIRS. That is just how it is! As I said to mark on his blog. The financial and material things a man loses during divorce is not near what a woman loses and can never gain back – her SMV for prime years spent with him and bearing his children, if she was a stay at home mom, she loses work history and experience and her age takes her out of the market for LOVE, WORK and she also has kids. It will be very difficult for a single mother to find a mate unlike a younger woman with no children. So she can hardly “get back” what her ex-husband can in financial and material resources.

                    No man can be forced into marrying a woman since its mainly males who make the commitment and marriage decisions by proposing to a woman.

                    As i said, I believe the laws should be revamped to make things better for both parties. but i am coming from the standpoint that the laws exist for a reason and obviously the lawmakers feel that women and children are the most vulnerable after marriages end and thus why the laws are the way they are. I have seen in my own lifetime MANY of struggling divorced single mothers in which the fathers pay when they choose or don’t pay at all.

                    The fact that the law has to go after so many men for skipping out on their duties to support their children says to me the laws are intact for a reason b/c a LOT of men would not pay child support if it were left up to them.

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                    • Matt
                      Oct 05, 2011 @ 08:48:41

                      Neecy,

                      This is honestly the last comment on this issue. I promise.

                      You spoke about Seth Rogan’s views on pre-nup agreements. His opinions on the subject don’t really matter that much for one reason. He makes more money than most men do. If he divorces and is ordered to pay 50% of his wealth to his ex-wife, it doesn’t matter. The man makes millions. 50% of $10 million dollars is enough to live on, even including monthly child support and alimony payments. But 50% of a man who only makes $30,000 is going to starve.

                      You are taking the point of view of the people making lots of money and applying it to those that don’t. It doesn’t work that way.

                      “The fact that the law has to go after so many men for skipping out on their duties to support their children says to me the laws are intact for a reason b/c a LOT of men would not pay child support if it were left up to them.”

                      So the fact that we have laws against murder means that a LOT of people would murder if it wasn’t illegal? You are, I think, begging the question here. It’s a circular argument. Since there are a lot of laws and enforcement against skipping child support payments, therefore MOST men would skip if they could. Does it happen? Yes. But the existence of an occurrence does not mean that that occurrence happens in most cases. For example, cancer exists and people can develop it. It does not logically follow that the majority of people will develop it.

                      So again, cite your sources. You and Liza keep stating that MOST men would not pay child support if they could avoid it, yet you have not provided any evidence to support this.

                      I also dispute this to be the case, given the divorced men I’ve met and the stories of Family Court hell I’ve read. I’m asking you to find some evidence for your position. If you can’t, then stop saying it.

                      “The fact is, when a man chooses to enter into marriage, anything he came to the table with is no longer just *HIS*.”

                      This is morally wrong. If I have a home, that I bought, paid for, and EARNED, before I got married, there is no reason on this earth why I should lose it to a woman that, statistically, is the one who chose to leave. She should leave with exactly what she came with, plus half of anything that was built during the course of the union. I fail to see how that isn’t fair and just.

                      “But I do feel you have way more negative views about marriage than positive ones, and I’m not so sure that you would be happy being married with these ideas? I could be wrong but it seems you are more focused on what can go wrong than what can go right?”

                      I have been burned, betrayed and generally treated badly by many people that I trusted. As a result, I am very cautious in who I deal with and I will take all steps I deem necessary to limit the amount of destruction that unscrupulous people can visit on me. It means that I am very slow to trust anybody.

                      Yes, that sounds a bit paranoid, but it’s saved me enough problems that I’ve found it to be the best way to do things. I do not want to have to endure a divorce. Ever. But it is naive and short-sighted to not consider the possibility and plan accordingly. More so given the consequences that can happen.

                      That said, my parents have been married for over 32 years. They’ve survived many things that would have driven modern couples to divorce. I’ve seen what a marriage is supposed to look like and, as such, have a very high opinion of it. It’s not the institution of marriage that I’m against. I’m against the LEGAL INSTITUTION of marriage. There is a BIG difference.

                      For a woman right now, the marriage is between her and her husband. The government plays no part. For a man right now, a marriage consists of him, his wife, and the government always making sure that he’s doubleplus good. Should he do ANYTHING that’s out of line, the full force of government is going to crash down on him and it WILL devastate him in such a way that he may never recover. Saying “Material Posessions aren’t all there is in life” is great … unless you don’t have the money to eat because you’re paying it all to the ex-wife (who, statistically, is probably the one who chose to leave) in the form of alimony and/or grossly inflated child support.

                      You keep saying that men recover after divorce. I seriously dispute that. The economy right now does not favour men. The recession that started in 2008 and is still going hit men hardest. It is still hitting men hardest. Right now, if a man is laid-off or unemployed, his prospects of finding a job with a livable wage are very slim. Yet the LAW states that he has to continue his child support at the same levels as when he had an income. Read the link I listed above about the Bradley Amendment.

                      You are naive if you don’t believe that men are considering all of this and more before becoming involved in any relationship that might become marriage.

                      Lastly, please read “The Misandry Bubble”. There are some (deliberate I think) inflammatory points in there, but it paints a fairly accurate picture of what modern society looks like to men. Please learn WHY myself and other men are taking the stance we are BEFORE you tell us that we are being overly negative. Those of us who have thought about it have extremely good reasons for thinking the way we do.

                      http://www.singularity2050.com/2010/01/the-misandry-bubble.html

                      With that, I’m out.

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                    • Neecy
                      Oct 05, 2011 @ 17:44:10

                      Maaaaaattt!! We still friends?? 🙂

                      Ok. i understand now why you are so skeptical. And believe me i am not saying things are perfect and should not change in terms of marriage laws. The last thing i wanna see (even if I never marry myself) are a bunch of men walking away from marriage. Society does not need this and if that means changing the marriage laws and such to make marriage more desirable to men, then I am for it!

                      I just think though, that sometimes men see things from thier own angle and overlook some of the reasons why these laws were put into play. FOR A REASON.

                      And for the record I still love and adore you and i’d totally be your baby momma so there! So kisses, hugs and snugs. And with that in the famous words of FIREPOWER – M’OUT!!

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        • Zorro
          Sep 30, 2011 @ 12:27:54

          “However what men never discuss with marriage laws etc., is that they protect women b/c its verry verry easy for a man to walk out on his wife, kids and family for some young tail that comes along.”

          Men ALWAYS discuss this. It’s called No-Fault Divorce, and we hate it. No-fault divorce was enacted in California in 1970 by then-Governor Ronald Reagan, and it was the STUPIDEST thing he ever did!

          And I’m not being cynical about women. I don’t blame women for vile marriage laws and divorce court. I don’t even blame feminists (not usually). I blame parasite lawyers and activist judges with feminist agendas.

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          • Neecy
            Sep 30, 2011 @ 13:04:16

            For the record I don’t think its cynical for a man to not marry b/c he doesn’t want to run the risk of losing is resources in a divorce. That’s just his right. but it is cynical to believe that all marriages end up like that. The fact is more women end up worse off after a divorce than ones who end up good. THIS is what most men don’t want to admit. its easier to look at cases where the women make out like bandits and focus on that. the fact is divorce hurts women more financially and emotionally and over the long haul. If the laws were that bad men would have stopped marrying a long time ago. that says to me that men still marry b/c they feel the rewards are worth going for even in face of the risks.

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            • Liza207
              Sep 30, 2011 @ 13:41:55

              Yes, Neecy, men still do the proposing and save up 3 months of their salaries to buy rings most of them can’t really afford.

              Men are the gatekeepers of marriage and commitment.

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              • Neecy
                Sep 30, 2011 @ 13:53:22

                That’s exactly right Liza. Women are gatekeepers of sex and men gatekeepers of marriage and committment. If men didn’t propose, there would be no marriages and there’d be a lot of illegitimate offspring running around.

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            • zorro
              Sep 30, 2011 @ 17:07:20

              “…losing his resources…”???

              More like losing his life. Men can become financial slaves to alimony and end up in prison for being unable to pay alimony or child support. Men can go to PRISON for being Layed Off!

              Thank your lucky stars you’re not male. Being male in this country SUCKS!

              I’m done with this. It’s depressing.

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    • Neecy
      Sep 30, 2011 @ 08:51:40

      MK,

      Optimists send out positive energy and attract people to them. Cynical people repel others through the aura of negativity (does not even have to be spoken most of it can be sensed non verbally)

      YEP and that is the whole point. I don’t think cynical people understand the reason why they don’t find the positiveness or see the good in people of the opposite sex is b/c their cynicism is like an unspoken repellent that turns them away.

      Is it cynical to say a man has to be very careful when choosing if he should get married and that due to the law of the lands and the current state of affairs he is probably better off not?
      Some may take it as cynical but I consider that pragmatic

      I would think that its only cynical if a man says that women in general are not worth marrying b/c they are X,Y,Z (like a personality or character flaw). But if a man says he doesn’t want to marry b/c of the actual laws and divorce laws that work against men in marriage then that is like you said being more Pragmatic IMO.

      since a long term relationship fills nearly all the needs of a marriage

      Actually that is only if you don’t want children. I don’t believe that children fare best out of any condition other than marriage. Its also proven that children fare best when in married families and households. In LTR’s its too easy for people to walk away from their responsibilities as a parent and partner. I just cannot see myself having a child with a man that doesn’t see the value in making a marriageable commitment to me and my offspring.

      I get the whole marriage laws working against men. I watched my father go through tis with a stupid ex-wife who doesn’t deserve anything but a kick in her butt for ruining a family and her children’s lives out of her own stupidity and selfishness. Yet he has to pay her alimony (after she walked out on the marriage) until the day she dies. Not fair at all. However, a lot of women also get screwed in marriages and are left out in the cold if their husbands decide to just up and leave her for another younger woman. Now these women have children, a loss of SMV 9b/c they are usually older) and will often have difficulty finding jobs in many sectors b/c of their age. So there are reasons why women need protection in marriage laws b/c they are the most vulnerable. The thing that needs to be looked at and changed are who should receive benefits and WHY.

      BUT most divorces these days are with people who married younger. Women who marry young often seek divorce within a 5-10 year time frame. Most women and people who marry later do not typically have these divorce issues (1) B/C women who would typically seek divorce after having been married while in her younger years, feel they are missing out and feel they are “bored” in their marriages or that they have grown apart from their husbands. As a result, they get in their 30’s and start believing they want to go out and seek new relationships and excitement. A woman already in her 30’s who marries later will not do this for the most part. 5-10 years later she will either be hitting 40’s or well in 40’s and would not have this need or feeling of getting “bored” and wanting to seek excitement b/c she knows her SMV in the dating/mating arena is much much slimmer by now. I believe this is why later marriages hold up longer and much more successfully than earlier marriages today where women can and do divorce in their 30’s when they still have a little SMV left to grab onto.

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  5. Liza207
    Sep 30, 2011 @ 07:38:48

    Neecy, I am glad that you addressed the subject of cynicism. I think we all feel negatively towards the opposite sex from time to time–I think it’s somewhat normal, especially, after having a bad experience (and we have all had them), however, what is important is that you brush your negative emotions off and keep believing that the right person for you is out there and that you both will find each other.

    I do not want to put all your business out there but it seemed to me that you were starting to slip into bowls of cynicism for a while there (and we both know why). However, I am glad that you are thinking positively about the possibilities.

    I want share this with you. My cousin who is a quality woman who always had standards for herself met her husband who is also a quality man when she was 38 years-old. She was always very choosy like myself and was determined to remain a virgin until marriage. Everyone thought that she should just find someone and just get it over with because she was not getting any younger but she stuck to her guns.

    She then met a high status quality man almost two years ago and when he met my cousin, he saw her quality right away. In addition, my cousin is not a woman most guys would look at and say she was a hottie but was cute and carried herself well. This man due to his high status could have easily married some 25-year-old hottie but he saw the find qualities my cousin possessed right away and he proposed to her within less than 6 months of meeting her. And from what, she told me about him, he appeared to be very selective and a man of quality who was single for some time–trying to find a woman who shared his values, morals and beliefs. They got married two years ago, I attended the wedding, and it was beautiful. I am very happy for her and they are currently trying to get pregnant. (You see, this is why I do not post pictures of myself on the internet-I give up too much information.)

    Therefore, Neecy, the moral of the (true) story is that no one should lower themselves or their standards because there is someone out there who will appreciate what you bring to the table.

    Moreover, yes, water always seeks its own level,–always.

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    • Liza207
      Sep 30, 2011 @ 08:36:38

      And I meant: bowels of cynicism

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    • Neecy
      Sep 30, 2011 @ 09:21:13

      Liza,

      Thank you for sharing that wonderful story Liza! And yes there are MANY MORE. I just went to a co workers wedding in April (she will be 40 next year) and she met her husband online and they have been dating the last year and recently married and are looking into having kids. They both are living well and have a wonderful connection This woman is not a beauty queen either. She had her fair share of abusive relationships with men and her father growing up and never gave up hope. So there are plenty of stories and incidents where women are still seen as valuable in the eyes of quality men who want to be with them even after they have surpassed the “youth and beauty” time clock..

      You are right, we do often and can become negative or aggravated with the opposite sex. but to me that is not being cynical. A person who is always saying how the opposite sex is never able to have positive qualities or values is a cynical person. A person who points out how sometimes men/women work their last nerves is a normal person who gets frustrated from time to time but would never say all or most of the opposite sex is worthless without any good qualities.

      Regarding the point of me getting cynical. Can’t say I was or ever will be cynical about the opposite sex. It was more that I allowed myself to believe and internalize *other people’s* CYNICISM and negative thoughts about women past a certain age. But I was never cynical about men in general. I understand there are some crazies and some good ones out there, and I have more positive thoughts about men than negative ones and that is possibly b/c I have not had any real bad experiences (outside of one) with a lot of different men. Maybe if I had, I would be more negative or cynical. I know myself well enough though to know I can easily become emotional over things and go off and then cool off and come back down to my senses. Luckily for me my senses and positive spirit always seem to come back and give me a swift kick in the booty and then I’m fine again.

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      • Liza207
        Sep 30, 2011 @ 09:32:38

        My cousin was introduced to her husband by a friend.

        There are those who will never see the positiveness of the opposite sex–no matter what. It’s best to just leave them alone. Some guy trying to win me over but keeps making negative remarks about women in my presence is not a guy I give the time of day to.

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        • Neecy
          Sep 30, 2011 @ 09:41:57

          So true. Have you ever gone on a date liza, and the minute you sit down at the table for dinner with the guy you can immediatley sense his negateve energy about the opposite sex?

          Went on one and all the guy did was bitch about how women need to do this, how women need to do that, how if women did this or that things would be better. UGH I couldn’t get from that date FAST ENOUGH!

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          • Liza207
            Sep 30, 2011 @ 09:52:36

            Yes, I have and it’s a nightmare and also very disappointing.

            Why would these men think any decent woman would want them, knowing how they truly felt about women?

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  6. Liza207
    Sep 30, 2011 @ 07:57:18

    “It’s like a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. If you look hard enough for something you will ALWAYS find it. If you only see and smell mold when you look at the opposite sex, then you won’t know what fresh looks and smells like.”

    Yep, you get what you put out into the universe. These days with all the negativity and the battle of the sexes that is taking place on and off the internet–I wonder why so many people are so cynical about love and relationships.

    You have men and women on opposite sides accusing each of the exact same failing and no one wants to see where they have made poor decisions that have cause there negative experiences. So instead looking at where I might have gone wrong (which is one of the most hardest things for a human being) we find it easier to put the blame the other person or in this case the other sex. In addition, this attitude will ensure that you will continue to fail with the opposite sex, and that you will always be in a perpetual state of anger and bitterness.

    I’m so sick and really tired of hearing men blaming women and women blaming men—just when will we start doing some introspection and soul searching to see where we as individuals are failing ourselves—when?

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    • Neecy
      Sep 30, 2011 @ 09:44:00

      YEP! One thing I am glad about in terms of my personality is I am never without looking at what my contributions were to something that didn’t work out in my favor. It may take a while for me to get there, but eventually I will. But some people NEVER want to look at their contributions as to why they never come out ahead.

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      • Liza207
        Sep 30, 2011 @ 09:55:55

        I had to knowledge that a lot of my failure in the love arena was due to my fear of commitment, which was causing me to become attracted to men who also had commitment issues.

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  7. Neecy
    Sep 30, 2011 @ 08:16:57

    I’m sorry but I am just so tickled pink at these avatars everytime I look at one. lol Liza, girl you look HAWT! lol

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  8. Liza207
    Sep 30, 2011 @ 08:41:12

    I kind of like the new avatars. The other ones were a little dull anyway.

    And yes, I do look hawt! I love purple.

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  9. Mark Slater
    Sep 30, 2011 @ 20:51:31

    Zorro: I would like to make a modest statement about marriage/divorce…

    While its true that women initiate a majority of divorces (66%, 70%, 91% depending on the survey), much of this can be explained by the fact that women are more confrontational in general when it comes to relationships. Often, a man will simply “check out” of an unhappy marriage; a woman is inclined to seek some sort of finalization.

    I have observed this even among young teenagers. A dissatisfied boy will tend to disengage himself. He will simply cease to call her or see her. The dissatisfied girl is more apt to confront the boy, “I don’t think we should see each other anymore.”

    Me? I still very much want to get married, fool that I am.

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    • Neecy
      Oct 01, 2011 @ 07:17:15

      Mark this is a very good point that i believe is often overlooked and not acknowledged. That women are much more likley to shut the door on a failing relationship/marriage than a male. My mother told me this very young and I find in my experience to be true. When guys are unhappy or “checkd out” of a relaitonship they will withdraw and/or just start seeing someone else but they hardly ever do the actual break-up. WOmen OTOH will as you say confront and end the relationswhip most of the time.

      I believe this is why so many women file for divorce over men. The men may also be unhappy and may have withdrawn or stopped being a”partner” and the women have just finalized an already failing marriage.

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    • MK
      Oct 02, 2011 @ 07:51:02

      Good points Mark. A few questions for you:
      1. What will a marriage provide you that a committed long term relationship could not?

      2. What criteria will you use to evaluate that you found the right woman?

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  10. MK
    Oct 02, 2011 @ 07:47:25

    Ok Neecy just finished a new post on marriage for men. Is this cynical or pragmatic (I am hoping the later)…

    http://manfortheages.com/why-are-you-getting-married/

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  11. Liza207
    Oct 04, 2011 @ 08:07:35

    Neecy,

    I too had deal with divorce in my childhood and it was hard for my mom for a few years. Its true most men would not make their child support payments if the court system was not involved.

    I think the problem is that men and women have two different ideas about marriage or are in two different places. I remember one of my female coworkers who was newly married (she was almost sixty) constantly complained about how her husband was boring and all he wanted to do was sit on their sofa and watch TV and she wanted to go out all the time but he wasn’t interested. She was extremely frustrated for a while but she eventually accepted the situation. Besides, she was way passed her prime anyway and was fortunate to find a husband at that age (and a real pain in the ass, too).

    Men see marriage as settling down and getting comfortable–the fun times are over. However, women see marriage as having a new start in life and are ready for new adventures. This is my theory as to why most women become bored in their marriages and initiate divorce (along with financial issues and infidelity). Most women do not view marriage in the same way men do. Couples getting married need to talk about their expectations in their marriage and see if they are on the same page–they need to be realistic. The marriages that really endure are the ones where the two people involved have vetted (values, morals, briefs, financial goals, you both want children or you both don’t want children, your expectations are the same and so on) one another thoroughly.

    Another issue for women in marriage is that a lot of them tend to settle. We become panicky about wanting children and husband because of the pressure society puts on us to be married at a certain age. There are women who will just marry a guy because she wants children and marriage and once she gets the number she wants–she wants out. I look the J. Lopez and M. Anthony situation, you just know she desperately wanted her two babies and once she had them, she was out of there.

    All I can say is that men who want to get married like, Matt, but have reservations should carefully vet their future wives.

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    • Neecy
      Oct 04, 2011 @ 08:41:28

      Liza this post perfectly encapsulated the issue. You are right. I believe women and men see marriage quite differently and have different expectations. That is why, as you said its extreeeemly important for everyone who plans to marry to vett their future prospects well. I always said that there should be mandatory seminars or classes people should take before getting married just so they know that its not some simple shacking up gig. Its a LONG TERM COMMITTMENT and needs to be treated and looked at as such.

      Too many people today just up and marry the person they have the hots for and then realize later they are not on the same page.

      I have to completely AGREE with your assessment that women see marriage as a new and exciting venture while men see it as a time to settle down and get comfy. Women want their husbands to be that exciting guy he was when they were dating. Too many of these men stop doing that once they get married and, women, rightfully so, lose interest and become bored out of their wits. Why should anyone stay in a long term agreement completely unhappy and unfulfilled? Men have a tendency to stay in failed relationships and marriages and do nothing about it, while women are different. We are more apt to want out and actually do something about it.

      A man needs to truly understand what makes his woman tick and be able to continue this for years on end. The same applies to women knowing their men, but IMO it seems men are much simpler to please in LTR’s and marriages. They just want you to be pleasant and easy going and give him sex lol. Women are a bit more complex, but if you find that one thing that makes us tick as individuals, the man can and will never go wrong and he will be a happy camper always.

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    • MK
      Oct 04, 2011 @ 15:32:07

      Its true most men would not make their child support payments if the court system was not involved.

      Says who. what is the data source? Not in my circles so you must have a totally different experience. All the people I know pay more than their required costs. But I’ll tell you what I have seen is a lot of moms try to use the kids as weapons and hold conditions to things (not my own situation). In my own situation I’m the soon to be custodial parent of a 4 & 7 yr old (since I am the responsible one and want them to have stable good lives.

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  12. Emma the Emo
    Oct 05, 2011 @ 10:14:50

    If I lived in USA and was a man (don’t know how the laws are in Norway), I wouldn’t want to get married either. Too dangerous. I’m sure a quality woman would understand.

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