SEX IN THE CITY….. i mean GLOBE!

Are women becoming more and more like their male counterparts in their desires or has it always been and Western women today are more freely able to be who they really are?

*Hmmm good question Neecy!*  (yes I talk to myself in the 3rd person at times!)

 I’m seeing more and more today than ever before, women who are increasingly developing the same strategies and tactics men have in obtaining what it is they most desire in the opposite sex – youth, vitality and good sex. People for some reason (especially men) seem to still want to believe that women are not just as shallow as they are when it comes to being visual about the opposite sex.

But there is a new trend happening that clearly shows that  YES women (even older ones) are quite visual and quite turned on by young hot men. So much so that hordes of women across the globe with resources and dollars take vacations to exotic places to have  long walks on the beach  sex on the beach with the young hard bodied studs from those countries!

Yes, women who are *GASP* PAYING  for sex, buying hot young virile male prostitutes in exotic locations where they can get quite a BANG for their BUCK. 

This growing phenomenon shows that women of the UK (usually late 20’s and higher) are leading the pack but more and more aging single women of various Western and Asian countries who have the money and resources are seeking out young hot male prosties for sexual pleasure and excitement.

This then leads me to my next question – if women are not big on a males looks, then why would they even give away their hard earned money and bodies to strange men across the globe for sexual pleasure? Men in exotic locations who are young, physically at their peak and who are willing to say and do all the right things with these women for money and gifts. Things these women know are all a bunch of BS but still not enough for her to turn away the prospect of getting pounded by some stranger in another country by providing him with a few bucks,  gifts and/or meals.

BEAM ME UP SCOTTIE!

According to Wikipedia, wealthy women have been doing this since the beginning  of time. It seems however, that it has not reached the same level of popularity of men, yet still seems to be growing. This was such an unheard of taboo for decades but now more and more articles are popping up discussing the amounts of women from young to old who take “holidays” at these exotic locals where they also partake in the flesh of the locals walking working  the beach. Its become so popular that according to one article companies even have TRAVEL PACKAGES directed  to women looking for this kind of “hook up”.  

And, Yes this includes women of all generations as well although women in their 30’s, 40’s and up tend to lead the pack (yes call them Cougars). But Grandma, nana or that hottie in her late 20’s can all take a trip to an exotic beach location and get hot beef injections by some Mandingo warrior looking for his next meal meal ticket.

This takes Sex in the City to a whole other level – GLOBALLY.

IF YOU CAN’T BEAT EM – JOIN EM? WHAT’S GOOD FOR THE GOOSE GOOD FOR THE GANDER?

For centuries it has been males who have utilized their status and resources to travel to countries (mostly Third World) where they can pay for sex with a  hot young woman in her prime without any questions asked. A lot of these men choose these destinations either b/c in their own countries it would be a lot harder for them to obtain the same kinds of young attractive women for sex b/c women of the West are well taken care of and typically a lot more independent financially than those of poorer countries – hence a lot pickier. Also lack of education and resources would cause a poorer young female citizen to sleep with or have a relationship with a man deemed undesirable by Western standards due to age or looks.

I believe the same applies to Western women seeking sexual pleasure and fulfillment with young men in these poor countries as well.

Inquiring minds NEECY wants to know –  what gives? Why would a woman do such a thing?

MALE BOOTY BARTERING & FEMALE BOOTY BUYING ACROSS THE GLOBE

Typically men go to Asian countries and Eastern Euro countries and women typically go to more exotic places like the Caribbean, Africa, and Dominican Republic. It has been reported that even wealthy Asian women go to many countries seeking young male prostitutes for sexual pleasure.  Interestingly, its mostly places where the poor and uneducated dwell and where they will do almost anything or ANYONE to get a few $$$ to feed themselves or their families.

Is sex tourism simply a bad case of people with status and/or money and resources preying on the poor, young and hot or is there something else at play?

I have to admit, part of me feels disgust at men and women who do this.  I always thought that  there are so many things wrong about people who do this. But when I looked further into my psyche and asked myself why on earth would women be doing this as well, my light bulb went off. I don’t know or believe if its all simply about trying to obtain sex for the *wrong* reasons.

SEXUAL DESIRES FOR A WOMAN DOESN’T END ON HER 30TH B-DAY

 Its human nature to desire sexual pleasure. That desire doesn’t stop for a woman at 30, 40, or even 50. But her access to sex becomes much harder in Western societies as she ages. When you look at how certain cultures place such a high emphasis and value on women’s looks and ages as being most valuable in obtaining sex and love it becomes much clearer as to why so many Western and European women are traveling abroad to obtain the hottest, youngest (yet poorest and most uneducated) men to fill their gaps (and I aint talking about the one between their teeth).

Think about it. Usually men seeking more traditional women and/or easier sex with attractive YOUNGER women will go to places where they will have a higher likelihood of getting their needs fulfilled by providing resources and/or money for these women who are typically poor, vulnerable and uneducated – yet beautiful or attractive.

The same can be applied to women seeking the same.

So my question is: Are the women who do this, doing it b/c they  simply are tired of trying to find and sift through Western males unrealistic desires and requirements about women and/or their treatment of women past certain ages (usually 30 and higher)?

Are these women just horn dogs looking for some hot fun sex that they couldn’t get at home?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-who-travel-for-sex-sun-sea-and-gigolos-407202.html

“More than sex, they are seeking a tenderness that the world is refusing them,”

Hmmm. This could be a great explanation as to why women do it. Though subconsciously they may feel they are simply looking for easy sex with some hot stud. Something much bigger may be at play here. A lot of these men tell these women what they want to hear and are very successful in obtaining money and gifts in exchange for sex for doing so.

For two weeks or however long a woman is vacationing at these spots, she will have hordes of  young hot men telling her “oh me so horny me love you long time. Me sucky sucky licky licky ” and  how beautiful she is and how much he desires her. Many times these women know its all just a bunch of BS, but if you are coming from an environment where you are frowned upon simply b/c you are not in your prime, I can see how some of these women simply eat it up and go for the gusto.

But I also believe that this trend lends credence to the REALITY that women are just as driven by youth and vitality as men are. Something that needs to no longer be downplayed and accepted by the masses. Women *ARE* visual and trends like this prove so.

I am also wondering how many cases of women who do this are looking to find more traditional men of varying cultures who would be willing to be with a woman despite her age as long as she can provide financially and in return provides her with his youth, vitality and virility and some damn good sex? The same thing and reason many men marry and date these kinds of women of varying cultures.

MY SPIDEY SENSES ARE TELLING ME THAT THINGS ARE COMING FULL CIRCLE

The SMP for women after a certain age in Western and European cultures is quite unreasonably cruel and judgmental.

Youth in all societies/cultures  is valuable – especially for women. But in many cultures aging women are not as tossed aside as in other cultures. In most European/White  Western cultures the women after a certain age are seen as invaluable depreciating assets in the sexual market place. This isn’t really the problem as the older one becomes the less attractive they will be compared to younger hotter men and women. The problem with that is, these women are seen as “invaluable” by their male peers who are within the same age range and slightly older.

This “invaluable” age range is typically starting at 27 and up. If you are above 35 in American or European cultures and a woman you can hang it up! You are pretty much deemed invisible, worthless, and useless and may as well jump off a bridge and die b/c your  time as a female is up according to most men of these cultures. Ok I’m exaggerating but not much. 

No matter how physically attractive the woman may be, her age alone is the determining factor of her value. Women looking for men within their age range or slightly/somewhat older than they are, are finding that unless they can get a magic wand and turn back the hands of time to their  prime years, its pretty futile. 

As a result, women become invaluable in the SMP and therefore finding a committed partner on her level who is not 100 years her senior becomes much harder in these cultures b/c of the obsession and higher value placed on extremely young women in the SMP – even by men who are within and close to their age or somewhat older.

THE GOOD OLE BOYS DAYS

In the past, women were encouraged and rewarded for looking past their gina tingles and sought out mates and men who could be the best providers. Therefore looks didn’t really matter to women during this time b/c if a woman tried to hold out for the hottest man, her ass would be homeless or still living under mommy and daddy’s roof b/c she would be unable to obtain any kind of credit or well-paying job to take care of herself. So women of the past were not as visually inclined and chose men based on other factors despite their pop bellies and balding.

Men as well didn’t place such high emphasis on women needing to be an 8-10 in the looks dept., and rather chose the women who would make the best mothers and wives to create stable families with. If the average man tried to hold out for only the top 1-2% of hottest women he’d grow old and alone without a stable wife and legacy. He’d be working to give all his money away to random hot women every night for their company and time. So during these decades  women were much more valued and appreciated beyond her looks as potential Long-term mates and wives and more so measured for who they were  (femininity factor) and how they carried themselves.  Love and sex  worked well for both men and women then. *sigh* But the past is the past, moving on….

ITS SO HARD TO SAY GOODBYE TO YESTERDAY!

These days its quite different. A woman’s main value more than ever these days is solely placed on her looks, age and willingness to have NSA sex fairly quickly – nothing more. Where Western feminism saves women is it  has afforded women the right to be honest about what they want and like in a man as well as being able to carve out a decent life for herself economically. It also gives her the choice to either accept her fate and look for other fulfilling ways to get what she wants for sex and/or relationships or to become creative about how she goes after what she wants – something undesirable men have been doing for centuries.

I consider it a balancing of the scales. If women are judged more harshly for their looks and age (something out of their control) in the SMP by men, the tradeoff is women will have greater outlets to carve out a life for herself to be independent if she is unable to meet or obtain a decent male with the growing requirements of a woman being forever young, hot and fertile if she wants success in the SMP.

With financial independence, comes a woman’s ability to be somewhat more “shallow” in her mate “preferences” (notice I said preferences which does not automatically lead to that preference being fulfilled NATURALLY as it would for a younger attractive woman in her prime). IOW’s whether or not a woman *CAN* get the type of man she really wants is beside the point that, that is still the man she wants. Often times it is a lot harder for a woman past a certain age who is somewhat shallow to find a man that fits into her preference. WHY?

As Western and European men become more and more increasingly open about their preferences for women who remain forever young many aging women in Western and European cultures (starting in their early 30’s and upward) are seeking to get their sexual fulfillment  and shallow needs met from “buying” younger men. A lot of these women like their male counterparts are recognizing that the dollar and/or status has value when it comes to buying a younger and hotter commodity that they could not otherwise get without money, status or resources.

In addition, with such greater emphasis being placed upon women for their looks and young age, more and more aging Westernized and European women  with resources and money by default are developing these same tactics for men – they want the hottest & youngest men – especially if they (the women) are financially well off and/or financially independent and able to barter that in some way in exchange for a sex with a hot young exotic man.

While Western and European men still have success obtaining younger and hotter women with their status , money and resources as they get older, the same is not as true for Western/European aging women at the same level in most Western societies where older women are devalued.

WESTERN WOMEN WILL EVENTUALLY STOP TRYING TO CHANGE THE PREFERENCES OF THEIR WESTERN MALE COUNTERPARTS AND SEEK FULFILLMENT WHERE IT IS

In industrialized Western societies, there  are a lot more demands and expectation on what people want in a mate – most of it shallow. Women are held to unrealistic standards regarding their youth that of course they cannot meet after a certain age. A woman cannot turn back the hands of time and stay 21 for ever. However, this seems to be an expectation of many Westernized males. If you are a woman 30 or older, in many Western societies you are considered damaged goods and/or unworthy as a woman. In western cultures Western males feel that women over the age of 25 are “depreciating” assets who  are not worthy of love, marriage or sex.

As More and more Western women these days are accepting this reality, they are also suddenly adopting the same strategies, tactics and ideals that men have held onto for decades. This reality is that just as men who are financially independent with resources can and do often choose the youngest women to entertain for sexual pleasure and relationships, many middle aged women whom have managed to  still have held onto their attractiveness  are openly seeking the same. If they can’t get the milk for free (which rarely happens) they are willing to pay for it.

The difference is, the stigmas of older women and younger men in Western societies are still quite taboo and frowned upon. So as a result, many of these women will travel abroad looking for mates and sexual encounters with men who are willing to be their Mandingo or hot stud for a small nominal fee.

These  women are finding that they can get their “shallow” gina tingles fulfilled with some young hot stud simply by paying for it. Something they couldn’t do in their own locals. It’s the same strategy that many Western/European males have been using for centuries when they travel abroad to mostly Asian countries or East European countries where they can pay money and provide resources to poor uneducated YET hot beautiful young women they could not obtain in their own countries.

Middle aged women from 30’s and upward  who travel abroad for sex  are finding that they do not have  to worry about all the baggage  rejection, drama or heartache that comes with trying to date and/or find men on their same level and within their same age range in their own countries and locals after they reach a certain age.

Sex is apart of the human desire and if you are a woman in your 30’s – 50’s you still desire it. But if you cannot get it on your own turf for free, many of these women realize the next best thing is being able to buy it.

Women who do this do it b/c they have accepted this fate of the obsession of youth and being seen as a depreciating(ED) asset in their own countries. These women choose not to hem and haw about it, or try to change the preferences of their fellow men in their countries and are saying “to hell with that BS” and are  realizing that their financial independence can offer them the same  desires as many males who have experienced a lack of success in the dating and sexual marketplace in their more Westernized countries.

Is it a sad state of affairs when it gets to this point for a man or woman? YES. But it is what it is. I call it the  “GET IN WHERE YOU CAN FIT IN” new way of thinking. Its human nature for people to try to obtain what it is they need and want the best way possible. For many Western and European women who are seen as depreciating assets to their men after the age of 30, they realize it’s a waste of time and energy trying to change the desires of their fellow men and rather seek pleasure the easiest and best way possible – traveling abroad and finding young hot studs to fill their voids they couldn’t fill in their homelands.

 DON’T BELIEVE THE HYPE FELLAS– LOOKS MATTER TO WOMEN!

Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall, Humpty Dumpty had a great fall!

Humpty’s ass fell of the wall b/c he was in denial! *at least in Neecy’s version*

I’m just going to say this. I feel its my duty as a woman to say it. Whether or not my words or views mean anything, I can safely say I am a woman, I have a vagina,  I am constantly around other women and we talk. And women like visually appealing men just as much as men love visually appealing women. Sure a man with a fat wallet and status can get away with pulling a hottie while he looks like Humpty Dumpty, but fellas this is not common practice AT ALL!

As I said earlier, I believe as with all things, its coming full circle for women. I have never understood this obsession with men trying to make women their age over the age of 30 feel completely worthless and useless as a female. Eventually one has to know that this will ultimately breed the same contempt towards males and will eventually cause women to develop and come up with the same tactics men are using by any means necessary.

Look at any dating reality show  and the first thing the women of any age ask and want for are “hot men”. The reason why so many women today desire this above all else as opposed to the past when it didn’t really matter how hot a man was, is that women can be their own providers these days. They do not need to rely on men to take care of them or to put a roof over their head or a hot meal on the table.

I feel sometimes a lot of men have a hard time coming to terms with this, and still go with this old outdated idea that they can look like shit on a stick and still pull all the hot women possible with a few good pick-up lines. This is such a lie on a grander scale. Sure confidence can and will go a loooong way if you are an average guy. But if you do not take care of yourself physically, you can forget it!

You do not have to be the hottest man alive, but you should certainly understand that just as you expect women to strive to be as hot as possible, the same applies to men who want to be most successful with women, whether it be in casual hook ups,  in their LTR’s and/or  marriages where they want their  SO’s or wives to still hold some level of attraction towards him. We hear and read it all the time in women’s mags. Wives and G/f’s writing letters asking if its “wrong” to cheat on their spouse or B/F b/c they are no longer attracted to him b/c he fell off the wagon.

Fellas I am here to tell you if no one else will. Please do not believe the LIE that women are not visual. And if you are in a relationship the same still applies. If you are still reasonably young, attraction is still very important in a relationship. Just as women should not fall of the physical wagon, neither should men in marriages and LTR’s.

Please do not allow yourself to fall into that trap of feeling that you do not have to be on top of your physical game to attract most women. I think it’s a crime when these NUMEROUDS articles come out telling men to not worry about how they look b/c all he has to do is have a poker face, say all the right things and have a pocket full of dollars to pull women.

Why do you think so many articles are constantly being pushed to the masses telling men this “looks don’t matter”? Maybe b/c the reality is it’s the opposite and holding onto a comfy lie is a lot more comforting than facing the reality that times have and are changing.

Yes, we have all seen and can attest to the old, fat, short, balding guy who has a 10 on his arm. But honestly we all know she’s not with him b/c she is rawly attracted to him. She is with him for security and money. If a man is fine with accepting this reality, then great. But I feel a lot of men simply buy into the lie that they do not have to do much physically to be attractive to women.

Also in many Western marriages that end up in divorce many times their wives were no longer attracted to them. It seems men once married or in LTR’s get comfy and stop taking care of themselves b/c they ASSUME and have been told for DECADES that a woman does not place great emphasis on the attractiveness or lack thereof of her mate. BULLSHEEIT!

 I’m not trying to be mean or a bitch but I feel men need to understand the truth so they can be more successful in their interactions and relationships with women. Believe you me, women today (especially Western women) have no qualms about cheating on their male counterparts and husbands with hotter men or men who physically take care of themselves and turn her on. I don’t agree with it but it is  happening in great numbers and it is what it is.

 Basically fellas. Times have changed. Get out of that 1950’s state of mind and come into the Y2K. Looks matter more than ever to both men and women. It’s not just one sided.  Women are not once who they were. Women are a lot more ruthless now about what they want and like and are willing to do anything to get it. Western women will quickly drop a man like a hot potato if he starts falling of the physical upkeep wagon. And you will also have a much harder time if you are not visually appealing in some way.

My question is, fellas do you honestly feel that you do not need to be attractive in some way to pull a woman?  Be honest, if you believe that women are not as visual as men and why you believe this.

 

 

308 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. Mark Slater
    Dec 05, 2011 @ 23:45:34

    Translation:
    “One of you men had better ask me out and love me REAL QUICK or I’m just gonna go to the Caribbean and find a hot young guy there!”

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    • Zorro
      Dec 06, 2011 @ 00:26:21

      Yup.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 06, 2011 @ 08:17:19

      AHAHAHAAAAA!!!! 😆 Mark that made me laugh really loud and hard. That was awesome. Nothing like waking up to an amazing laugh! LOL

      No seriously give me a lil more credit than that! Jeez! Thankfully, I can still get laid if I choose by my fellow countrymen here in the good ole US of A. 😉 LOL If I travel to an exotic location the only thing I’m going to be laying in is the beautiful water and ocean.

      I may be a horndog but I could not see myself sleeping with any of these men from these places b/c that’s just nasty. Can you imagine the diseases these men carry.?Sleeping with women in their own countries and then taking up with all kinds of women from other countries.

      My main point is I understand why so many women are doing it, not necessarily that I agree with it.

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  2. Marellus
    Dec 06, 2011 @ 02:24:35

    My question is, fellas do you honestly feel that you do not need to be attractive in some way to pull a woman? Be honest, if you believe that women are not as visual as men and why you believe this.

    It helps being handsome. Look at my profile pic. That’s me. I have never understood why some women would show any interest towards me, when I have done nothing to attract theirs. And I think it’s because I’m handsome.

    It’s just that I find that hard to believe sometimes. Really.

    But personality helps even more. I remember calling a bank to close an account. The girl started giving me some canned script about liabilities and duties, and legalities and other arcane stuff. As she read this, I started laughing. At the end she couldn’t hold her laughter.

    I remember it going like this : ” … we hereby move the following amount to your NatWest account to the sum of …” Me : “… fuck-all … ” Her : “… sixty seven cents …” We both laughed.

    But I had another account to close with them. We had to do the legal thingy again.

    And she basically sing-songed her whole way through the script while I cheered her on, and made ecstatic noises when I got hit with some high-faluten-bankanese word.

    And then at the end : ” .. we hereby move the following amount to your NatWest account to the sum of … ” Me : “… less than fuck-all …” Her : “… twenty four cents … ”

    It was hilarious.

    I never saw her, but even if I did, I’d not even hesitate to take her out for a drink. I don’t know many girls like her. And I think she would have accepted. Unfortunately we were in different countries. So nothing ever happened.

    So personality counts. It really does.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 06, 2011 @ 08:23:21

      Marellus I agree that personality is key. As I always say you can be initially visually attracted to someone, but if they lack personality or other non visual qualities that are attractive a person can lose interest fairly quickly.

      But being attractive does help both men and women. I believe its b/c most people are just average looking. So when a man or woman comes in contact with a above average or very attractive person they do become very attracted to them b/c they are rare.

      I think you have such a boyish babyface too and that is why women feel comfy talking to you 🙂

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      • Liza207
        Dec 06, 2011 @ 08:45:46

        Although, women are just as visual as men are. We tend to value other qualities along with a guy’s looks. Yes, I love a good-looking guy but if that is all he has going for him he will not hold my interest for very long. I mean, good looks, charm, intelligence and a good sense of humor–a winning combination for me. Sure, a good personality does go a long way but it will not get the panties wet alone.

        I have said this before and I believe the types of men that only care about looks are of low quality because water tends to seek its own level. Real men although they may be interested in a woman’s looks they often want her to have more than just her good looks going for her.

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        • omerta327
          Dec 06, 2011 @ 08:54:43

          “Real men although they may be interested in a woman’s looks they often want her to have more than just her good looks going for her.”

          Spot on. Good looks will get your foot in the door, but a good personality keeps you there. That goes for men, too.

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        • Neecy
          Dec 06, 2011 @ 09:04:52

          Yes Liza women are a lot more well rounded in looking for other qualities that makes a man attractive – unlike men who mostly base their judgements of women on looks and/or age.

          I personally can be turned on by an average guy with SOLID FRAME than a hottie who is shy and emasculated. UGH! There is nothing worse than a good looking guy who is scared to talk to women or scared to take control or who has no personality. I htink most women do want a man that is super confident, that stands up to her, and dominantes her in some way – WHILE still being yielding and kind and charming towards her – that is what gets a woman going. But as well she also wants to be visually attracted to her man and this is often overlooked.

          But the point is men need to recognize women are VISUAL too. Too many of them feel this is not the case and I feel they are deluding themselves.

          Anyone who simply bases a potential mate prospect on looks alone is crazy and is setting themselves up for the heartache they deserve. Its completey shallow to simply focus on looks.

          BUT men need to udnerstand that Western women are becomming just as shallow as they are when it comes to judgeing men by their looks. If I read one more article telling men that women don’t care about men’s looks I’m gonna scream.

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          • Liza207
            Dec 06, 2011 @ 09:42:16

            I said before yes we are becoming more obsessed with looks as women. Men need to understand and deal with this. We no longer feel we have to pretend otherwise and we don’t care about how much they want to browbeat us about this anymore. I will give it about 5 more years and the power shift will be taking place. A man’s most important asset will be his looks and not much more, as women’s incomes continue to outpace that of men.

            I believe that women have been demonized in some ways through the ages for being visual too. It seems that we have been browbeaten to death and made to feel ashamed of desiring young attractive men. I have always believed that men have been using our looks as a weapon against us–a form of control. When men want to control or put women down they tend to go right to criticizing our looks, by repeatedly telling us our looks are all we are worth (bullshit of course, as you see women are outpacing men in education and earning these days obviously we have more going for us than just our physically appearance) this gives men a power over us that we didn’t have over them. However, that will be changing soon and men know this that is why they are constantly writing articles and conducting bullshit studies. They are afraid of the paradigm shifting and losing their power over us.

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            • Neecy
              Dec 06, 2011 @ 10:13:53

              Liza you’re right. i didn’t want it to come to this but it seems that Karma is coming around and men are going to soon be getting a full taste of what its like to simply be held by your looks in terms of your value. Its real shitty it has come to this but you cant think that you can continue to make women feel worthless for things out of their control and think it will not eventually turn around and come back on you as men! It happensd all the time. What goes around comes around!

              Its one thing to hold women accountable for things within thier control – personality, attitude, weight, femininity etc. But its a whole other thing to hold women accountable for things out of her control – AGE.

              As more and more women are becomming economically and financially independet its gonna get worse for men too b/c Western women are becomming just as shallow as Western men. Not good for society at all.

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              • Liza207
                Dec 06, 2011 @ 10:19:01

                Many women varying for the attention of an attractive few–single motherhood rates through the roof.

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                • Neecy
                  Dec 06, 2011 @ 10:37:10

                  YEP. Hell I have been reading many articles about how sperm banks are selling out. And guess what? the women who go there want the BEST LOOKING genes from a man she can get. Women are literally picking and choosing the features of the sperm donors.

                  Its crazy! More and more Western Women (White especially) are using sperm banks and donors to fulfill their desires for having kids after a certain age. These women realize for the most part their men toss them aside after a certain age and thier probability of finding a possible husband to procreate with and have a relaitonship with gets smaller and smaller with each turning year. So they say EFF it and go straight to the sperm banks – which are selling OOOOUT!

                  Women are becomming more and more creative about getting what they want b/c they realize the realities. Can’t say I agree with all of it but i understand that women are just developing survival skills based on her needs. You cannot change men’s preferenes, but a woman can change her situation by finding ways around those preferences by buying or paying for what she wants – including CHILDREN. If men are not willing to meet women halfway, women will use thier money and resources to BUY what they need by any means necessary *shrugs*.

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                • Liza207
                  Dec 08, 2011 @ 14:46:49

                  Yes, do know how to spell: VYING. How come no one picked up on that?

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        • Matt
          Dec 07, 2011 @ 21:46:19

          Liza,

          I had a long reply written out, but you’ve written it better than I did. I agree with everything you just said.

          *tips Fedora*

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  3. MK
    Dec 06, 2011 @ 07:46:13

    I could reply to 10 different points in your post but I’ll go with the looks part since debating the concept of international sex tourism does not interest me over morning coffee.

    Focus on what you can control and seek to maximize your relative advantages. It works in business and also in interactions with the opposite sex. The competition in this case could be potential hookups for the night, rival long term suitors, or the ghosts of the one that got away that they have never gotten over. Qualities like looks, wealth, charm, style, game etc all matter but the importance will vary based on the person assessing them, their mood at the moment, and the options present.

    Being good looking is a major advantage but if the good looking person is dull and lacks charm/game they can quickly give up that advantage and be outflanked by someone with game. How easy that is to pull off with depend on the differential of looks in the prospects plus the differential in other factors. From personal observation game often wins out especially when the looks differential is 1-3 pts max because most women seek the novel, exciting and adventure (perceived or real) over logic and reason.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 06, 2011 @ 08:33:34

      MK I agree wholeheartedly that Game will help and average guy who has worked on looking physically appealing over a good looking guy who is whack and too shy. I feel though that men need to know the reality and to stop kidding themselves thinking all they need is game to be successful with women. Not true. Women are just as visual as men.

      The good looking guy will always have first dibs and if he messes up he’ll be cast aside for a less hotter guy with game. Basically, hotter men do not have to do as much as average men to get women. I see it all the time. Sometimes all they have to do is LOOK at a woman the right way and she is like mush. If they have just a little game, they are much further in the process than the average guy who needs to make sure all his T’s are crossed and all his I’s are dotted. That’s just something that I do not think most men want to accept. Women are more likely to give a good looking guy and easier chance than an average or not so good looking guy FIRST.

      Liza and i were discussing this last night talking about really hot guys who screw themselves over b/c they are petrified of approaching women. Shows like the Bachelorette also prove this. Many of the men on there are top notch in looks – they are tall, good looking and have decent jobs but they are PETRIFIED when it comes to women and they lose out. Or as a woman you will be out and watching all these hot guys who you know are not getting laid or who don’t have g/f’s b/c they are too scared to talk to women. Yes that is a turn off and this is where an average guy with confidence can clean up in the SMP.

      All I am saying is women are visually inclined as men are these days. In the past it wasn’t that way and I feel a lot of men delude themselves into still thinking women are that way. And the amounts of articles that are being force fed to men saying this, is suspiciously telling to me that there is a FEAR of men realizing this hard fact.

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      • MK
        Dec 06, 2011 @ 09:13:09

        Few men would be so naive to think that looks do not give a big initial advantage it would be foolish to think that. I think it could probably be laid out (pun intended here) using a Maslow’s hierarchy of hookup.For most women I have encountered fame trumps all since there is always the fleeting hope of fame by association. After that it gets a little tricky because top echelon looks or wealth (of a real fashion not faking the signals) should win out but if they are utter bores game has a chance of winning the day because charm and excitement matter. Game can also give the illusion of other attraction factors such as wealth, status or desirability even if they are only being faked. That is why it is so effective for the short term interaction it takes a lot of logic to put the whole story together and there is no incentive for many woman to question it if it feels good and is enjoyable.

        The real benefits of game as I see it is:
        1. Builds internal confidence to meet people and not take rejection to heart
        2. Lets you see world for what it is and not what you wish or were told it is
        3. It is controllable vs. other factors of attraction that are harder to modify (looks) or take years/decades/lifetime of business world work to accomplishment (wealth)
        4. Is very effective especially if you are decent looking or combine it with other attraction factors.

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        • Neecy
          Dec 06, 2011 @ 09:28:38

          I agree that Game definitley has its advantages. I personally am turned on by a man with a solid frame no matter what he looks like. But i am less likely to move it further with the guy who i am not physically attarcted to than the one I am. So this is where men need to understand with all things being equal a woman will go with the guy most visually appealing to her.

          MK honestly there are some dudes out there who really believe they don’t need to be attractive or strive to be attractive to get women. This really worries me. LOL How can some men be so deluded? There are a lot of men who believe this. i think its a crying shame for any man to be lead to believe that women (especially WESTERN WOMEN) are not visually inclined. That’s horrible!

          But a lot of Western good looking men today *DO* lack solid frames when it comes to women, so it makes the lesser attractive guys with solid frames look like a delicious plate of…oh Spahghetti? LOL

          Yes a man with confidence goes a looon way.

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  4. Liza207
    Dec 06, 2011 @ 08:24:58

    First off, I think going to third world countries and having sex with men from those places holds absolutely no appeal to me—the STD factor–so not appealing. I was born in Jamaica, I have vacationed all over the Caribbean islands, and I have witnessed many women (particularly white women) from the states going hard for those guys.

    I remember my vacation to the Bahamas 2 years ago when I became friendly with a sweet guy who was a staff member of the resort I vacationed. He told me some wild stories about the antics of the women who came there pursuing the young hot Caribbean men. He claimed that these women often propositioned him but he never indulged (yeah, right). I mean, he was living in a third world country and he himself was pretty attractive and young. I just was not buying it. However, I loved the stories, though.

    The idea of Sex-Tourism would not be my cup-of-tea. Besides, there are plenty of hot young American men that do not mind banging older women. Like Neecy said, some of the women might be looking to escape the stigma of desiring younger men and the fact that these younger men may be much easier to obtain due to their lack of resources.

    Another thing, he told me was that most of those women were married and they were not always alone.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 06, 2011 @ 08:41:34

      Liza I am not making a case for sex tourism I’m just pointing out why more and more Western women are doing it. Yes its mainly White women b/c I think they ezperience the most grief from their men for aging. So they escape to these countries to get sex from men they could not otherwise get in their own countries – even if they paid for it.

      I guess my purpose for even bringing up women and sex tourism is moreso to show that women are still visually inclined and desire the same things their male counterparts desire – YOUNG HOT MEN for sex. I’m trying to point out that whole argument that women are not visually inclined is a lie these days and so much that women are willing to risk their health and pay out the pocket for sex with young hot men.

      Also I am pointing out that things are coming ful circle b/c men cannot think they will get away with judging women sorely by thier looks na dage with it eventually not backfiring. I beliebe it will get worse in the case and men will eventually be completely judged by the same standards as Western women continue to gain footing economically and financially.

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  5. omerta327
    Dec 06, 2011 @ 08:25:51

    As far as sex tourism goes – people are gonna get their rocks off one way or another. If that’s what older, post-wall women want to do, whatever. Doesn’t bother me none. Stella’s gotta get her groove back somehow.

    Now, if it’s “tenderness” these women are looking for, the tenderness they’re getting -paying for- is totally false and contrived. In essence, it supports the old argument that women just want you to tell them what they want to hear, even if it’s bullshit.

    :…fellas do you honestly feel that you do not need to be attractive in some way to pull a woman? ”

    Nope. Never felt that way. In fact, I really don’t see how the idea of ‘women are just as visual as men’ should be a revelation to anyone.

    Our first impressions of anyone are always based on looks. Women want a guy who gives them the ‘gina tingles, men want a women who passes the boner test. If you want to stay on top of your game, man or woman, ya gotta take care of yourself. Eat right, work out, wear clothes that fit / compliment you. It’s really not that tough if you’ve got half an ounce of self discipline. But then, I guess that’s exactly the problem.

    It’s like this – they say there’s three characteristics a guy can have; A) looks, B)money, C) game. You’d better have at least two of ’em.

    “It seems men once married or in LTR’s get comfy and stop taking care of themselves b/c they ASSUME and have been told for DECADES that a woman does not place great emphasis on the attractiveness or lack thereof of her mate. BULLSHEEIT!”

    Women are just as guilty of this kind of complacency as men, probably more so.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 06, 2011 @ 08:54:00

      Now, if it’s “tenderness” these women are looking for, the tenderness they’re getting -paying for- is totally false and contrived. In essence, it supports the old argument that women just want you to tell them what they want to hear, even if it’s bullshit.

      The same can be said about men. A lot of men honestly think that these young beautiful women are with them b/c they love them and are attracted to them. BS. If thes emen had no assets or money or resources they wouldn’t be pulling these younger beautiful women. Those women want money and security – NOT HIM. So the delusions go and work both ways. So in essence men want to believe what they want to believe and women want hear what they want to hear even if its all a crock of BS and they are being used.

      Nope. Never felt that way. In fact, I really don’t see how the idea of ‘women are just as visual as men’ should be a revelation to anyone. .

      It needs to be b/c i see so many men and articles directed to men telling them they can be butt ass ugly and still pull hot women b/c women “don’t care about looks”. That is such a lie and all it does is create an atmosphere where men feel they can let go of themselves and still be a stud in a woman’s eyes. The reality is a lot of men do not want to face the facts that not only are they visual but so are women – especially WESTERN WOMEN. I can see why though, men would want to believe this doesn’t hold true for them as it does women. They don’t want to have to be judged by the same standards about their age and looks as women. So they hold onto these outdated ideals that women are not looks inclined.

      Women are just as guilty of this kind of complacency as men, probably more so.

      This is exactly what I mean. Men love to point out how poorly women take care of themselves in marriages and LTR’s. But rarely do they ever want to discuss how often they as men become comfortable after they get ,married and settle down and stop taking care of themselves. The fact is b/c women for so long have been held to such high physical standards many today work very hard at trying to keep themselves looking good b/c women catch a lot of flack for falling off the wagon.

      B/C men have been getting away with falling off the physical wagon for so long, they feel its ok for them to look like crap and their wives and g/f’s should still be just as attracted to them as they were when they first met. More men need to recognize this is not true and there would be less women divorcing their husbands of more men started taking into account that they too have to stay up on taking care of themselves physically. They take this for granted when they are married and/or settled down.

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      • omerta327
        Dec 06, 2011 @ 09:10:09

        “The same can be said about men. A lot of men honestly think that these young beautiful women are with them b/c they love them and are attracted to them. BS. If thes emen had no assets or money or resources they wouldn’t be pulling these younger beautiful women. Those women want money and security – NOT HIM. So the delusions go and work both ways.”

        Agreed.

        As for complacency in LTRs / marriages, I agree as well. It all comes down to accountability for both partners.

        “It needs to be b/c i see so many men and articles directed to men telling them they can be butt ass ugly and still pull hot women b/c women “don’t care about looks”. That is such a lie and all it does is create an atmosphere where men feel they can let go of themselves and still be a stud in a woman’s eyes.”

        Glad I’m not reading those rags.

        But the same can be said for women. Overweight / obese women being told to “be proud of your curves!” or that any guy who’s not attracted to them “isn’t man enough for me!” It’s all about reinforcing bad behavior in order to keep people from feeling BAD ABOUT THEMSELVES.

        I remember you and Liz having a dialogue about average / decent looking female celebrities are being called ‘gorgeous’ and ‘stunning’ so that regular women will feel closer to that standard. Something to that effect, anyway. But it’s the same principle.

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        • Neecy
          Dec 06, 2011 @ 10:04:07

          Omerta I am just as annoyed by the fat acceptance mantra directed towards women. I am also annoyed by societys attempts at turning averge women into drop dead beauties. But i honestly am starting to feel its more to do with women trying to create a balance for themselves b/c women are valued mostly and solely for their looks. Many times it becomes very difficult for women to maintain and uphold such stadards so women are creating campaigns that make it a little easier on them.

          Be it right or wrong I believe this is the core reasoning behind the fat acceptance campaigns. When as a person you are simply judged by things out of your control (looks) it becomes a constant attempt to either try to keep something that is going to eventually go away or try to create different outlets that take focus off of that. this is what women are doing.

          Hopefully one day looks for both men and women won;t be so suprememe, but it look slike its getting worse in this arena and the worse it gets the more desperate women nad men will become at trying to either maintain it or creating campaigns that try to deter focus on looks. I dunno!

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      • Liza207
        Dec 06, 2011 @ 09:48:28

        The same can be said about men. A lot of men honestly think that these young beautiful women are with them b/c they love them and are attracted to them. BS. If thes emen had no assets or money or resources they wouldn’t be pulling these younger beautiful women. Those women want money and security – NOT HIM. So the delusions go and work both ways. So in essence men want to believe what they want to believe and women want hear what they want to hear even if its all a crock of BS and they are being used.

        ——–

        Yep. I cannot believe these men think that those women are attracted to them physically and are sincerely about desiring them sexually. It is really laughable at times.

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        • Neecy
          Dec 06, 2011 @ 10:08:48

          That’s the thing Liza. Men who are always promoting young women and older men are quick to let women in the same situations (where the woman is older) know that for HER relationship with the younger guy its all a phoney sham and she is just being used – the young guy is not really attracted to her.

          Yet they actually believe these young hot women are with these older men b/c their panties won’t stop flooding b/c he is so damn hot and turns her on. LOL These young beautiful women are *NOT* using these older guys for money and security. These older humpty dumpty guys are not seen as wallets with feet to these women. its juts love love love for the older man and younge rwoman. And its all a crock of BS for the older woman younger man relationships.

          *SIGH* What are ya gonna do?? LOL

          Unbelievable!

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      • bob
        Dec 07, 2011 @ 18:59:20

        It needs to be b/c i see so many men and articles directed to men telling them they can be butt ass ugly and still pull hot women b/c women “don’t care about looks”.

        Any guy that believes this is just frigging stupid like a box of rocks. Any guy that ever believed this wasn’t paying any attention AT ALL.

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    • Liza207
      Dec 06, 2011 @ 08:54:22

      Omerta,

      I agree. Women do become more complacent in their marriages and allow their looks to go to shit. I have witness this often. She looks great when he meets her and then even better just before the wedding—just check back in a few months and it is the beginning of the end.

      One of the biggest mistakes a woman can make in her marriage is letting herself go physically–always look good.

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      • Neecy
        Dec 06, 2011 @ 09:10:08

        I disagree Liza. i do not believe women are *MORE* complacent than men in marriages. I wish people would stop saying this. I see so many men who stop taking care of themselves once they get comfy with their g/f’s or wives it snot even funny. I believe its equal.

        The only diff is women catch more FLACK for becomming comlacenet with their physical appearance b/c such great emphasis is always placed on a woman’s looks. Men are constantly overlooked for doing the same thing at the same rates b/c once again society wants to believe that women are not visually inclined.

        Yet the divorce rates show women are the ones who are mostly seeking divorce. I can almost guarantee you a lot of times. A lot of women stop being attracted to thier husbands b/c their husbands start getting fat and stop taking care of themselves. i read these letters all the time in women’s mags. Its a recurring themse these days with married women.

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        • Liza207
          Dec 06, 2011 @ 09:20:03

          I am just going by what I see in real life. I believe that most women initiate divorce due to financial issues and infidelity. Women often after child birth experience weight gain that they may not lose. Yes, her husband’s appearance if he isn’t taking care of himself will make her less attractive to him sexually–I have heard of this a lot too and she may cheat.

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        • omerta327
          Dec 06, 2011 @ 09:21:40

          “The only diff is women catch more FLACK for becomming comlacenet with their physical appearance b/c such great emphasis is always placed on a woman’s looks. Men are constantly overlooked for doing the same thing at the same rates b/c once again society wants to believe that women are not visually inclined.”

          I think it’s more because it’s a hell of a lot easier for a woman to skate by in the SMP just on her looks, and quite a few women do. 99.9% of men don’t have that luxury.

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          • Neecy
            Dec 06, 2011 @ 09:38:28

            I agree Omerta. It is a lot easier for women to skate by on her looks but a hell of a lot harder and with a shorter window. A lot of men always talk about how a woman only has to be halfway attractive to get by in the SMP. But what they also are not taking into consideration is how judging and placing value on a woman for her looks is a lot worse for women b/c looks fade.

            And women have a very short window in Western society where they are considered worthy in the SMP. So it skinda like he who wears the crown has the heavy head idea. It may be easier for women to skate by on their looks, but that doesn’t last very long for many and being held solely by your looks is a very high pressure and stressful to the average woman who finds it very dificult to try to meet the standards of beauty that are placed on women.

            I believe this is where the fat acceptance mantras with women come in – trying to balance out the pressures of meeting nadliving up to the attractiveness ideals in society.

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            • omerta327
              Dec 06, 2011 @ 09:46:40

              True, but I also think men and women who take good care of themselves can keep that window open a LOT longer than ever before. A woman in her 40’s who has her shit together physically is still highly bangable.

              “And women have a very short window in Western society where they are considered worthy in the SMP. So it skinda like he who wears the crown has the heavy head idea.”

              So, you’re saying hot young women should be treated like royalty? 😉

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              • Neecy
                Dec 06, 2011 @ 09:54:05

                I agree. i just don’t understand how some men can say that an attractive woman in her upper 30’s and 40’s is road kill. i don’t get it. Are these men saying they would not bang J-LO (who is 43), Eva Mendes (who is 37), Eva longoria (who is 38)? I mean really. this has to stop! There are women who are still very attractive in upper 30’s and mid 40’s. Women these ages realize they have to take very good care of themselves and usually work hard at it if htey want to maintain thier attractiveness.

                And as far as young women being royalty – hey it is what it is. i don’t hate on young beautiful women b/c everyone had their time to be young and beautiful. Just as every young and beautful woman will eventually no longer be in that category – so hey why not enjoy it is my philosophy. I tell my younger cousins in early 20’s and late teens to maximize and appreciate this time while they have it.

                I don’t think its *WRONG* for a man to be sexually attracted to a young woman, i just think its wrong to say that women after 30 are road kill and useless in the SMP. not true.

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                • Liza207
                  Dec 06, 2011 @ 11:22:53

                  Also, negs focuses on a woman’s looks by saying something is wrong with her appearance in some way or the other. This is way negs are so affective on women it plays on our insecurities with our looks–an insecurity that men have created by telling that is all we are worth. Therefore, giving them control. Once we start focusing on their looks primarily they will become just as insecure and just as suseptable. They really fear this.

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                  • omerta327
                    Dec 06, 2011 @ 13:54:07

                    So you’re saying soon there will come a time where I’ll be solely judged by my looks?

                    You mean I wont have to be concerned about being funny, or smart, or confident, or having good social proof? All I’d have to do is look good and that’s it?

                    Damn, girl, I wouldn’t fear that, I’d WELCOME it. It would make my life a lot simpler.

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                    • Liza207
                      Dec 06, 2011 @ 14:08:18

                      It is a trend I am seeing with a lot of women these days. When they are asked about what they want in a man, the first and sometimes only criteria that they require is, “is he hot?”, “I want a hot guy”, “He has to be hot” and so forth. I kid you not.

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                  • omerta327
                    Dec 06, 2011 @ 14:25:20

                    Hmm. I think what they’re really saying is “I want a hot guy. Who has this kind of car, who has this kind of job, who’s at least this tall, who doesn’t have a baby mama…”, yada yada yada.

                    They’re being honest about wanting a “hot guy”, and I can’t begrudge a woman for that. I just think it’s just a pre-requisite to a whole laundry-list of other wants.

                    It’s like that episode of Tough Love Miami. The one where Steve made them make lists of all the things they want in a man, then put them in front of 100 guys and have them sit down one by one if they can’t meet their criteria. I don’t think any of the girls had more than 8 or 9 guys left at the end.

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                  • Matt
                    Dec 07, 2011 @ 22:32:05

                    Liza,

                    Honest question. Why is it whenever I read you commenting on a collective short-coming of women (in this case insecurity about looks), it’s almost always followed by how it’s men’s fault that women feel that way?

                    I’ve seen it more than a few times in your comments and I’m seriously starting to wonder.

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                    • zorro
                      Dec 07, 2011 @ 23:06:16

                      Because men are responsible for every problem in the universe. Women are blameless, angelic creatures who are incapable of creating their own unhappiness.

                      Seriously, did you not get the memo?

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                • omerta327
                  Dec 06, 2011 @ 13:49:09

                  I was kidding about the royalty comment. If anything, that’s a HUGE part of the problem.

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                  • Neecy
                    Dec 06, 2011 @ 14:58:12

                    Dangit I didn’t catch that sarcasm.

                    But anyway yes it is apart of the problem and monster that men created. Young and hot attractive women know they have the upper hand in the SMP b/c men make it clear that they do and therefore and rightfully so, men should have to work hard and have obstacles at obtaining the most sought after women.

                    Its the monster that has been created by men so…

                    But my problem is not that young attractive women have high SMV b/c its natural that they would.

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                    • omerta327
                      Dec 06, 2011 @ 16:43:09

                      Yep. Men need to nut up and stop pedestalizing women. Easier said than done, tho.

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                    • Neecy
                      Dec 07, 2011 @ 01:41:45

                      I agree that men should stop pedestalizing women for their looks, but I don;t think men should stop flattering or complimenting women they find attractive.

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      • omerta327
        Dec 06, 2011 @ 09:15:12

        QFT.

        Men do it, too. Like I said above, it’s all about accountability.

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      • MK
        Dec 06, 2011 @ 09:25:32

        I agree with you on the women and the physical part but since a majority of the women choose to end the marriage (between 70-90 percent) it is mostly irrelevant. I know many men whose wives either are or were very unattractive and they stick it out in the marriage due to a sense of honor of commitment or for the kids.
        A lack of game in general is what causes most marriages to end in my opinion (and would say for my own as well) Men feel marriage means being comfortable and predictable and avoiding some of the BS (game) needed in shorter term relationships. But to keep a woman interested in marriage it is every bit as important to game her and keep yourself high value. Many of today’s women would rather be alone than be bored or viewed as unexciting. The problem for the world (and unknowing men) is marriage has become a very unbalanced activity that is too big a risk to get into for a man (especially evident upon a failed one). If as much game/work is required for a married man vs. a single one why expose yourself to the huge financial risk when it is even more work than short term associations.

        Marriage is going to be left to the realm of the extreme religious and naive and even they will question how distorted it is when they get burned (and many of them will due to the lack of realizing the need to game in a marriage).

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        • Neecy
          Dec 06, 2011 @ 09:45:16

          Yes MK a lot of women do file for divorce b/c they become bored to tears with their hubbies who have become very comfy and settled. As you said I feel men do this maybe not on purpose but it just seems like when a man has settled down he does become very comfy.

          Unfrotunatley women are like kids and we need to feel constantly challened in our relationships. So yes a wife becomes very bored and sees her husband as unexciting. Not tot mention she is turning on Sex in the City and watching women her age live these exciting lives, she then feels she is missing out.

          Frankly, I feel marriage is such a beautiful thing I think a woman would be an idiot to end a mrraige b/c she feels she is missing out. But I can also understand it must be torture to be in a committed marriage with a man that stops being exciting or who stops trying to please you or who stops taking care of himself etc.

          Having said all of that DAMMIT I STILL WANNA GET MARRIED! LOL Don’t spoil my dreams MK. LOL

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          • Matt
            Dec 08, 2011 @ 22:58:59

            You know one of these days, I’m going to sit down and write a post on what a marriage is supposed to look like, what it is and what it isn’t.

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            • Neecy
              Dec 08, 2011 @ 23:43:41

              And when you do PLEEEEEEASE send it to 60 minutes b/c the world needs to know what real marriage is suposed to look like. You got all the loonies giving it a bad name. However, i still wholey believe in it and think with the right person its a wonderful and beautiful *YET CHALLEGING* thing.

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        • Liza207
          Dec 06, 2011 @ 11:33:10

          “But to keep a woman interested in marriage it is every bit as important to game her and keep yourself high value. Many of today’s women would rather be alone than be bored or viewed as unexciting. The problem for the world (and unknowing men) is marriage has become a very unbalanced activity that is too big a risk to get into for a man (especially evident upon a failed one).”
          ———

          I totally agree with this. I am not interested in drama but I want some excitement in and out of bed–I would really love some spontaneity once in awhile. And I will keep up my end by looking good for him– just be fucking creative.

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          • omerta327
            Dec 06, 2011 @ 13:56:18

            ^^^ This.

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          • MK
            Dec 07, 2011 @ 03:49:33

            Liza,
            I have a suspicion that the level of excitement needed is strongly related to what other activities the woman has going on in her life.

            Housewife needs way more game excitement than a woman who goes to work every day then has family duties when she gets home. The first woman has way to much idle time on her hands to wish things were better, indulge facebook waste of time, and in general think of things she would rather be doing.

            From a husbands perspective it can be quite exhausting to deal with someone like the first woman above and the value equation becomes very skewed. It gets to be a point where the drama and constant need of entertaining someone on a constant basis isn’t worth it. Upon self reflection I think I’d go for a woman that has more going on in the future idleness breeds discontent.

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            • Liza207
              Dec 07, 2011 @ 07:26:28

              MK,

              Yeah, the stay at home wives seem to be the ones that get the most restless which is somewhat understandable being that their lives revolve around the home, therefore they have fewer outlets. I will be honest I would not mind being a stay-at-home wife. For me, that would give me the time I needed to develop my interests and hobbies–more time to work on myself. I would definitely utilize my time wisely I would not waste it being bored but that is me. I often have thoughts about being the hot stay-at-home wife who cannot wait until her husband gets home from a day at work and I am waiting at the door to… and then serve him dinner afterwards.

              As a woman who works, I do not require as much excitement especially during the week. However, it would be nice to come home and have a romantic dinner with my spouse and some intimacy (if you know what I mean). We can save the excitement for the weekends. I do worry about falling for a guy and we are not on the same page about our expectations in a ltr. I believe the problem with boredom in a marriage is the lack of communication between the two parties, which is reason #4 for divorce. If you want something, ask for it–before and during your marriage. I do not get what is so hard about this.

              I have never been married and I am in my thirties so I know how to find ways to create my own excitement. I have traveled a bit and I have had so great experiences. I love trying new things so I rarely get bored. However, once I enter into marriage I do expect that my spouse and I to enjoy various activities.

              I am curious, what are the expectations of men who enter into marriage? It seems that men and women have different agendas when it comes to tying the knot.

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              • Neecy
                Dec 07, 2011 @ 08:16:23

                Yeah liza i simply do not understand how people can make vows to be together for the rest of theirr lives but can’t communitcate what they want. Its just crazy.

                I don’t need much excitement b/c I can excite and entertain myself, and I actually prefer somewhat laid back guys – but not so laid back that they never talk or communicate. but if my husband, b/f or SO does not communicate its a done deal. I am Huuuuge on communication and expressing your feelings and saying what you want. That is so the deal breaker for me. I have been with guys who never really communicate and hold things in and its just outright hair pulling annoying.

                I alos HAAAATE passive-aggressive forms of communication.

                So for me its communication and showing affection. Without those two I’m not a happy camper.

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                • Liza207
                  Dec 07, 2011 @ 08:28:09

                  Yes, Neecy, communicating up front what you are expecting from your mate when it relates to goals, sex and how they will be spending their time together is key. If I love sitting on ass watching TV in my spare time and hate traveling and in your spare you like to go hiking and sailing and love traveling– we might have some issues down the road. Don’t you think?

                  When it comes to communication I also believe that you don’t have to talk about and express every emotion –sometimes too communication can be a problem too. Just the most important things should be discussed.

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  6. Firepower
    Dec 06, 2011 @ 08:43:57

    daimmm girl, when you say you is
    gonna write a little article
    you aint kiddin

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  7. Liza207
    Dec 06, 2011 @ 10:06:10

    Neecy, in the manosphere they claim that women file for divorce more than men due to boredom but that is not true. It makes women sound crazy and trivial. There are much more serious factors, like I said –finances and infidelity which are number one and two.

    I just sick hearing that women are just divorcing men for bullshit reasons when there are children involved. My mom did not divorce my dad because she was bored–he constantly stepped out on her in their marriage and she got tired of it. The number two reason.

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    • MK
      Dec 06, 2011 @ 10:17:35

      Liza,
      If I come across as a reverse racist for this (so be it, hell of a disclaimer huh).
      I believe divorcing for the trivial reasons is primarily a white female phenomenon.
      I think your assessment of why black women divorce is more likely but am only going by my experiences and what I have witnessed (the white side of the equation).

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      • Neecy
        Dec 06, 2011 @ 10:30:43

        MK I think you are on point. i believe Western White women are spoiled beyond belief and they also are very apt to divorce for silly superficial reasons. They also have quite a bit of propoganda directed to them as women telling them they are “all that” and they also see stuff like Sex in the City and believe in that. SO they look at plain Beta WHite husbands and think they can do much better. I never liked SITC EVER. But its very popular b/c a lot of WW buy into that lifestyle. *shrugs*

        I feel WW They tend to take for granted the WHite males who make good husbands and fathers b/c for some reason WW do feel they have WM bagged for the most part – in essence they (WM) won’t be going anywhere.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 06, 2011 @ 10:21:21

      Hmmm Liza I never thought of that but I agree. I believe infidelity is huge with men these days in marriages and is like you said the biggest cause for a woman to divorce (and rightfully so). A lot of men believe that women ar elike th past and will stay in marriages where she is being cheated on. but women do not have to stick in marriages where she is being cheated on and will and can file for divorce unlike the past where many women did not have outlets and had no choice but to put up with her husbands infidelities.

      But I also believe women these days past thier prime have a lot of things directed to them saying how life is great being a “cougar”. So the slightest thing that goes wrong in their marriages is grounds for Divorce. i say that b/c a lot of women who marry young or in their 20’s eventually do outgrow their husbands by the time they reach 40 or so. They feel bored and feel as if their husbands are less exciting and not as into her as when they first met. SO they start seeing all these singly attractive women in their late 30’s and 40’s and feel the grass is greener.

      Its all just messed up. Its so sad what has become of men and women and relationships today.

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      • Liza207
        Dec 06, 2011 @ 12:52:08

        “So the slightest thing that goes wrong in their marriages is grounds for Divorce. i say that b/c a lot of women who marry young or in their 20′s eventually do outgrow their husbands by the time they reach 40 or so. They feel bored and feel as if their husbands are less exciting and not as into her as when they first met.”
        ———–
        Neecy, yes, this is the main reason women get bored. They are bored and they also are trying to find themselves (self-actualization)–something they should have done in their early twenties, not when you are forty-something.

        However, my problem with the whole women are divorcing mostly due to boredom is that it pretty much absolves men of any responsible. I just do not buy that women are divorcing in large numbers just because they are bored and their husbands are innocent and did not do anything to cause her to leave him other than bore her to death.

        He was just a bore or I outgrew him (more likely). There is a lot of cheating and abuse in these marriages and I do not believe it varies due to race either as, MK, suggested.

        Lastly, yes women do divorce out of just dissatisfaction and boredom but they are very small fraction of women. The stats are online.

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        • omerta327
          Dec 06, 2011 @ 14:09:32

          “However, my problem with the whole women are divorcing mostly due to boredom is that it pretty much absolves men of any responsible.”

          Not necessarily. If a woman divorces her husband because she’s bored and the marriage has gone flat, then he obviously wasn’t holding up his end of the deal. He’s just as much at fault.

          Now, If she’s bored w/her husband cuz she’d rather go play hide the salami w/ Pedro the pool boy, then that’s different.

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          • Liza207
            Dec 06, 2011 @ 14:14:30

            ok.

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          • Neecy
            Dec 06, 2011 @ 15:16:44

            I agree Omerta. I feel a lot of married men get really really comfy in their marriages after a certain point and they stop doing all the things it requires to keep his woman happy and attracted to him. Women do this too after having kids as well. They stop having sex with their husbands and stop trying to be sexy. That is just wrong on both sides of the coin.

            I have a young married co-worker with a 2 year old son who claims she only gives her husband blow jobs on special occassions. i think that is so WRONG! LOL A lot of women do this and that is not right.

            Then the marriage goes flat and fizzles and then you have two people who are just going through the motions. i don’t think a woman should stay in a committed mariage for the rest of her life with a man who is not even trying to keep her happy sexually and emotionally. And a man shoul dnot stay in a marriage with a woman who is not sexually available. A lot of men check out in marriages after so many years and their wives just say eff and it file for divorce.

            As MK said. Women would rather be alone than bored to tears with a man that doesn’t try to please her or offer some emotional excitement.

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            • omerta327
              Dec 06, 2011 @ 15:23:47

              “Women would rather be alone than bored to tears with a man that doesn’t try to please her or offer some emotional excitement.”

              A wise man once said that the worst thing you could ever possibly do to a woman is bore her.

              “And a man shoul dnot stay in a marriage with a woman who is not sexually available.”

              Problem with that is, in most divorces, guess which side the courts favor?

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              • Neecy
                Dec 06, 2011 @ 15:47:38

                A bored woman is *NEVER* a good thing! LOL

                The only way I could see a woman denying her husband sex is if it were after she had a baby and had to wait the term before hainbg sex or for serious reasons.

                i never understood the concept of women who are sexually loose with casual strangers and then get married and don’t wanna have sex. that is the one time a woman should go buck wild!

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                • omerta327
                  Dec 06, 2011 @ 16:14:22

                  Oh, they want to have sex alright – just not w/ their husbands.

                  Familiarity breeds contempt.

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                  • Neecy
                    Dec 07, 2011 @ 01:38:27

                    Well if that’s the case why even bother getting married if you don’t want to have sex with your spouse? ugh the craziness!

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                    • omerta327
                      Dec 07, 2011 @ 07:14:49

                      Because getting married is what you’re SUPPOSED to do, remember? Society expects it of you! All your friends are doing it – you don’t want to be left out, do you? You don’t want to be called an ‘old maid’ or a ‘spinster’, do you?

                      -sarcasm off-

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                    • Neecy
                      Dec 07, 2011 @ 08:05:15

                      That’s just idiotic and immature to me. As much as I would like to get married I would never allow myself to jump into any marriage with a guy I did not want to spend my life with OR have regular sex with no matter how much pressure I was getting from friends, family and society. NO WAY. Some women are so desperate tp put up a front they’lo get married just to say they are married yet they are miserable. Not worth it.

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        • Neecy
          Dec 06, 2011 @ 15:09:53

          Liza I agree there are so many reasons why a woman would divorce – but i honestly feel a lot of American WW divorce out of lack of excitement and feeling their husbands stopped paying them attention etc. American White women tend to marry very young and in their prime (also the time they should be discovering themselves) and 10-15 years later they are now late 30’s and 40’s and feel they have outgrown their Beta hubbies who are not showing them the same level of sexual attaction/attention he was when she was much younger. Not only that as you mentioned they are trying to “discover” themselves at 40 b/c when you marry young you really don’t give yourself time to do that b/c you are in a marraige and having kids.

          Then they turn on TV and They see all the “excitement” in being single, sexy and able to be a “cougar” and they think the grass is greener. They believe there are more exciting and hot men out there for her to partake in (b/c she is still attractive at 40) So they divorce their husbands and find out that its very hard for them to find and keep LTR’s with the men out there b/c their age inhibits them in the SMP.

          Oh believe me I think men play an integral role in why marriages dissolve and men are least likely to take the steps towards divorce if they are unhappy. Women are much more pro active and thus will end a relationship if they are not happy.

          Ideally people (both men and women) would casually date for as long as they could and marry later when they are both in their mid to late 30’s. the liklihood of a woman divorcing after marrying at this stage is very very low. But the younger a woman marries the higher probability of divorce 10 years down the road..

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  8. Marellus
    Dec 06, 2011 @ 10:20:37

    I can’t help but notice how freely all of you, the women included, are using Game terminology. Just how prevalent is the concept of Game and negs, DHV, Shit-Testing, The Wall etc. in your day to day interactions ? Is there any indication to any of you that game is going mainstream, or is it a momentary curiosity like a Rubik’s Cube ?

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    • MK
      Dec 06, 2011 @ 10:23:50

      Its still very much a black art. Only reason we are all using that lingo is because of heartiste’s site.

      Most of the world still does not appreciate the science and its implication.

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      • Neecy
        Dec 06, 2011 @ 10:55:06

        Sorry MK this did not post earlier. not sure why this went to my Spam folder? Stiupid wordpress. LOL

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      • Marellus
        Dec 06, 2011 @ 11:15:43

        MK,

        … and what do you think came first : Game or MRA/MGTOW ? It seems that the two are feeding off one another nowadays. I think the two should be separated, just like Church and State … after all, what woman will really get wet with a pick-up artist that quotes Roissy’s Blog like Scripture ?

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        • MK
          Dec 06, 2011 @ 12:46:55

          Interesting question Marellus my thoughts are unless someone was fortunate enough to learn the sweet science of game from a relative or mentor they learned the hard way through a devastating break up or an ass raping divorce.

          A few possible outcomes:
          1. Man buries his head in ground and repeats same mistake over and over (too many do this and its sad)
          2. Man swears off women as not worth his time Likely the lower testosterone leveled men or the ones who got really badly burned. – MGTOW?
          3. Man gets raging sense of injustice at current situation and thinks he can change it – MRA?
          4. Man realizes changing system is unlikely and instead tries to make things work to suit his own needs.

          I am in camp 4 and I should say camp 4 does not mean I am seeking to become a total player and slay everything in sight. My goals are to become the best man I can be and build the best life I can for myself and learning game helps facilitate that goal and to open doors. I am already teaching my 4 yo son active game principles so he doesn’t have to learn the hard way I will be the Aristotle to his Alexander the Great.

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          • Marellus
            Dec 06, 2011 @ 12:53:01

            … and that was a very interesting answer …

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          • Neecy
            Dec 06, 2011 @ 15:21:10

            MK lemme ask you. Do you think if men and women married later in life that marriages would last longer?

            There are stats that show that the later a woman and man marries there is a very low chance of divorce.

            Maybe if men and women casually dated up to the mid 30’s point and then decided to marry after that things would be much better? Women at this point are less likely to get “bored” and already have “discovered” themselves. They don’t feel they have missed out on anyting special as would a young 20 something woman who 10 – 15 years later suddenly has an epiphany that she is missing out or has outgrown her husband.

            I dunno just a thought for those who still want to marry.

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            • MK
              Dec 07, 2011 @ 03:57:54

              I think divorce would probably be lower with later marrying ages but the concept goes against all years of established human history and is clashing with fertility windows.
              I also read on another site that it could have negative impact on the woman’s ability (perhaps both partners I don’t recall) to pair bond after too many failed relationships and while that seems possible I haven’t thought about it much.

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    • MK
      Dec 06, 2011 @ 10:26:32

      Its only our common lingo because everyone absorbed the Chateau material.

      Most of the world just goes with the flow and doesn’t think much about the deeper dynamics at work.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 06, 2011 @ 10:40:59

      Marellus I think its very prevalent in day to day life. But a lot of us can’t place it until we actually learn the concepts. For isntance I experinced all these things, but after reading the Game sites it all kinda started to make sense.

      Now I consciuouly look for certain things when I am interacting with a man. Like does he have a solid frame? Is he negging me? Is he trying to get me to qualify myself? Am I shit testing him? And the average guy who does this doesn’t realize he is doing game techniques and certainly doesn’t realize that i am aware of them. The average woman that is shit testing doesn’t realizew she is doing that or why she is doing it either. So its very prevalent in day to day interactions between men and women whether they are aware of it or not.

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      • Marellus
        Dec 06, 2011 @ 10:52:02

        Thanks for the info. I am a bit mystified by what you mean with “Solid Frame” … how would you describe it ?

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        • Neecy
          Dec 06, 2011 @ 11:04:39

          Hmmm. Its hard to describe I just know it when I see it.

          I guess the best way I personally describe solid frame is a man who is very confident. he’s solid in that he is not overly moved by a woman so that he becomes fearful of her possible rejection. He’s not afraid to challenge her or stand up for himself or beliefs that may not coincide with hers (a lot of women will shit test men to see if they will simply agree with her just to get what he wants. Especially if she knows he is attracted to her a woman feels most men will nod their head in agreement to almost anything she says b/c she knows he wants to get to the next level with her. A lot of times women use this as an undercover shit test and if he doesn’t pass she is turned off of him or will file him int eh LJBF category). So if I’m not saying a man should disagree with a woman for the sake of disagreeing and coming off like he is solid, but it just needs to be sincere. A woman will know when a man is sincerely agreeing with her b/c he actually agrees with her vs. when he is simply agreeing with her just to get somehting.

          Just think SOLID in that he’s strong, confident, and FRAME as if he has everything under control. If a man comes up to a woman he already knows his mission an stays on track to get there. If he acts scred or too shy its the nail in the coffin.

          A man who doesn’t have a solid frame to me is a man that waits for a woman to make the moves, is very shy, somewhat fearful to move things to the next level b/c he is afraid of possible rejection, he agrees with everything she says although he deep down wants to argue against what she is saying.

          Does that help?

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          • Marellus
            Dec 06, 2011 @ 11:07:46

            Yes. Thank you. 🙂

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          • Liza207
            Dec 06, 2011 @ 11:48:32

            Yes, Neecy, it is sad for these guys. I see them at the gym (I love guys who workout-self-discipline is sexy to me). They are good-looking, well-employed and really fit but they are so afraid to put themselves out there due to their deep-seated fear of rejection. I look at them and think what a waste. That hot ass body is going home alone with palm and her fives sisters–and I’m thinking; I smiled at you and all you have to do is smile back ,and besides I saw you looking at my ass as I was running on the treadmill the whole entire time I was on it. Just come over and see what happens but nothing and I can see and smell their fear and I’m done.

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            • Marellus
              Dec 06, 2011 @ 13:13:24

              Liza, I’m playing the devil’s advocate, but what is your impression of the men that DO approach you then ?

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              • Liza207
                Dec 06, 2011 @ 13:31:50

                Marellus,

                The men that usually approach me are players, pua, jerks, assholes, cads, bad boys and thugs. I am often irritated that the men I just described in that scenario do not appear to be comfortable approaching me. I know what you are thinking I should approach them, right. No, I just do not feel comfortable doing that. I fear I will have to take initiative and make all the overtures from then on because I attempted that once and it still bugs me ‘til this day—the way things turned out.

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                • Marellus
                  Dec 06, 2011 @ 13:48:00

                  … I feel you. Life is like diarrhea … after you’ve gone through a lot of shit … you feel great …

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                • MK
                  Dec 07, 2011 @ 04:01:07

                  At the same time if that is what is currently approaching you and not what you want what are you going to do different to get better results?

                  Ask others how approachable you seem maybe your guard is up more than you know. Maybe you need to be more open to general conversation to give the guys your looking to attract an opening they will seize.

                  Not to say it is all you but your actions are the only ones you can control.

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            • Neecy
              Dec 06, 2011 @ 15:27:21

              OMG Liza how freakin sad is that! LOL at all that hot body hardness going home alone with just his hand and fingers HAHAHHAAAA! Its a crying shame!

              Its like the hot guy who stares and looks and smiles but never follows through. Or he’ll work up the courage to come and talk to you but he cannot close to save his life. If he doesn’t close i won’t help him and I’ll just leave it alone. They really want women to take up the slack and do their job as to avoid rejection. UGH.

              Its so sad to see a good looking guy go to waste b/c he is petrified of rejection. Like i said this is where average guys with confdence and some charm and solid frames are going to clean up in the SMP.

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              • Marellus
                Dec 07, 2011 @ 00:29:47

                … the way you describe it, it is the approach that is the worst and most difficult part of Game. I agree. It’s easy to be silly with a woman online, and it’s fun as well. You can attest to this. But pulling the same thing off in real life is difficult. There is just no time to think of a clever response.

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                • Neecy
                  Dec 07, 2011 @ 01:36:33

                  It is probably hard to approach a woman, but if you get the fear of rejection out of your head it won’t be. I had a guy approach me in Fed Ex Kinko’s and I was buzzing around doing all kinds of busy stuff focused on my paperwork and he still opened me. So approaching a woman only becomes difficult if you fear rejection or don’t or can’t handle it.

                  Thing is too this guy knew he had to be quick with the open and closing b/c I was obviously very busy. And he did it very fast less than 5 mins.

                  Its just a matter of practice and learning to be able to handle rejection if it happens.

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              • Marellus
                Dec 07, 2011 @ 05:29:30

                This really happened.

                I am a smoker. And at the mall where I shop, there is a tobacco shop where I buy my cigarettes. And the sales-girl is probably one of the most attractive women I’ve seen. In the beginning I was quite cordial with her, but after a while she warmed up to me.

                After a while she liked to tell me of all the problems in her life, and I usually tried to make her laugh then. It worked.

                I remember there was this one time where I walked into the shop, and she made a point of ignoring me. So what I did is this; I made a sly look at the other salesgirl that was looking there that day, and proceeded to hit said salesgirl on her bum with my hat.

                Her response was bloody hilarious.

                Later she told me that she had to close her facebook and twitter accounts because of a stalker. Apparently this gentleman piqued her interest because he could quote Shakespeare at her, but this soon degenerated into sexual aggressiveness. She asked him to stop.

                He persisted. She blocked him, but he found a way back in, and threatened to kill her. Hence she had to stop using twitter and facebook.

                Another time, she told me of customers “borrowing” stuff to smoke and promising to pay her back. They never did. (And it was women that did this to her.) I gave her a hug. It was strange how she tried to get another hug out of me.

                I just replied with another wise-crack, and later when I returned , she remarked to my brother what a sweet guy I am.

                And about two months ago I walked into her shop again. It was a Friday. I stood right in front of her. She just sat in front of me writing a letter. So there I stood pulling funny faces, and she just kept on writing.

                “You’re doing that on purpose aren’t you ?” I said to her.

                She immediately changed from a distracted writer into a smiling and helpful salesgirl. I asked her why she was always this way with me, and she responded that she always has this irrational desire to “test” me, everytime she saw me.

                And then she gave a strange look and said : “Come on Monday at 12. I’ll be finished, and you can service me then … ”

                I was stunned. I couldn’t go. And I didn’t. I was studying for exams.

                I returned later in the week. She was glad to see me. She thought I was angry with her. And made a show right in front of me of putting her cellphone down her bra.

                I made a wise-crack that left her in stitches.

                And last week she quit her job because she was suspected of theft. She wasn’t even working in the shop on the day it happened.

                I haven’t seen her since.

                And I think if you read this carefully, you’ll see I used some Game. Not much methinks, but it was there. And I think if I were honest, I’d say that Game is a dangerous thing. Necessary yes. But dangerous.

                I could have slept with her, and buggered both our lives up. I only felt sorry for her.

                I never loved her.

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                • Neecy
                  Dec 07, 2011 @ 08:00:09

                  Marellus my question is, did you ever at any point wat to move things further with her? B/C it seems like you waited for her to finally close the deal b/c she eventually offered herself sexually to you without you asking for anything.

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                • MK
                  Dec 07, 2011 @ 10:55:19

                  Marellus,
                  Your recollection of events made me confused as hell.
                  What was your objective for this encounter?
                  A. Practicing your social skills
                  B. Light hearted banter with hope for more
                  C. Sexual interest
                  D. Relationship interest

                  As I was reading it I assume B or C but at the end it left me wondering what the hell your doing.

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  9. Neecy
    Dec 06, 2011 @ 11:09:58

    Ok peeps. Neecy Nest Search Engine term of the day *drum roll please*

    “what makes a nasty vagina”

    😕 😮

    Its certainly not as good as the “HAMSTER PORN” search but comes reaaaal close. LOL

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    • omerta327
      Dec 09, 2011 @ 07:19:04

      What’s that? Some kind of new drink?

      “Hey, bartender, I’ll have a Nasty Vagina.”

      I guess if you’re looking for a nasty vagina, a bar would be a good place to go.

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      • omerta327
        Dec 09, 2011 @ 07:20:54

        Dammit! I screwed up the italics! I meant to just italicize ‘would’ but…. aw hell, I’m still learning.

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      • Neecy
        Dec 09, 2011 @ 08:21:52

        hhaha! I double dawg dare you to go into a bar and ask the bartender for a “nasty vagina” with the straightest face ever. HEHE!!

        And yes I for some reason get all the crazy search engine terms led to my blog. The worse was someone was obvuously searching for HAMSTER pron. LOL

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  10. n/a
    Dec 06, 2011 @ 11:51:55

    No.

    The idea that women are as visual as men is ludicrous. Men and women are animals formed by ancient evolutionary imperatives, and no amount of “culture” can change that fundamental fact.

    Women who travel for sex would always prefer to get that sex from the ideal alpha male she’s always desired, the one living right down the street. Men travel for sex because they crave physical variety for its own sake, and in a way and to a degree that women could never understand.

    When a woman looks at a man she sees his looks — and then, sometimes within seconds, she sees a hundred other, often very much more important things — as far as she’s concerned. These things mostly relate to his charisma or lack of same.

    And the fact is that a woman’s view of a man’s *looks* will change profoundly — for better or for worse — as she gets to know him. Women will *fall in love* with genuinely ugly men, when such men have charm. She will not love a beautiful man who utterly lacks charisma.

    But a man can and will love a beautiful woman no matter how empty she is. It may not be wise, but that’s the way it is. Men and women are *programmed* to desire very different things. Programmed.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 06, 2011 @ 15:37:11

      HI N/A Happy Thxgiving!! LOL

      N/A I agree that from a natural raw standpoint women would be less inclined to go for a man’s looks and moreso for the best provider and most dominate and masculine – ALPHA.

      However, animals are adaptable and so are humans. What women are doing these days may not be in her natural state as a woman, but you don’t believe that humans adapt to their current situations for the best survival outcomes?

      I’m pointing out a cause and effect of why more women these days are adopting the same tactics and techniques men have been doing for centuries to seek fulfillment they would not or cannot nromally get. And also as more women become financially well off they are also more likely to adopt male characteristics and seek out young hot studs for boy toys and relations just like an older man with money status and resources does with younger women. WHY? B/C women realize that this is really the only way they can get their needs met. Women cannot change the male preference but they can change their situations to meet and fulfill their individual needs.

      I’m not saying this is a natural or raw state of being for women. Women would not naturally pay for sex with men, women would not naturally go to seek sperm donors and have kids alone, women would not naturally place such a higher value on a man’s “hotness”. but in a society that pushes women in a corner women will change and adapt accordingly.

      You bring up the animal kingdom and animals like humans are adpatable base don teir environment and cause and effect over time.

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  11. n/a
    Dec 06, 2011 @ 11:53:57

    And hello to you, Neecy. 😉

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  12. Mark Slater
    Dec 06, 2011 @ 13:38:29

    n/a and Neecy,

    I think you are both right. Certainly women care about looks and fitness on their men and desire it deeply. I also think its true that a man can more readily compensate for mediocre looks and body, or a good-looking man can further add to his attractiveness with sense of humor, charisma, kindness, bank account, Game, etc.

    A woman who is plain, however, will find her options rather more limited despite chastity, sweetness, attentiveness, and other desirable virtues.

    Ahh, here we are back into Game Theory/Heartiste. I really enjoy reading Heartiste and generally agree with the basic principles of attraction. I do strongly disagree disagree with two things:

    1. The silliness and uselessness of “Oneitis”. What he calls Oneitis was, in a happier age, called “falling in love”. Dodo Bird that I am, I still greatly believe in “falling in love”. It is one of the beautiful things that make life worth living in a world that is often ugly and sad. It is a wonderful way for a man and a woman to begin a lifetime together.

    2. The idea that once a woman is 30+, she isn’t worth a plugged nickel. I have seen single women on that board really internalise that standard to their own discomfiture (Neecy, Liza207, Maya, and some others). For many men, they do want to have a family, so <40 y.o. would have to be a practical consideration.

    That said, I continue to read Heartiste although I mostly lurk and comment rarely. I enjoy it very much even though it has not really taught me anything I didn't suspect already, but put in a way that is more logical and systematic. I also like the commenters (the ones who aren't idiots).

    I must admit I didn't care much for Neecy at first. There I was on Heartiste happily reading away when I would encounter her prating and often lascivious posts. How did they go? Maybe I can encapsulate them:

    "…So I don't understand what you guys want here and here is all of the men that I have had but they didn't work out and I don't think I'll ever be loved so I'll just grab some young horny guy even though I know he doesn't love me, no that's not right I am celibate b/c I don't need drama but I'll still screw some guy if it feels right b/c i am so horny but i'm still just an old-fashioned traditional girl not like you who is just using some alpha b/c i am really good and a good person just b/c i am horny and need to screw once in a blue moon…

    [Heartiste: Neecy, cool it. Some of the other commenters are staring to complain.]

    ..oh sorry but i have been with men but none of them has treated me right and now i can't be loved b/c i am old and just b/c none of you m–fkrs like old women doesn't mean no one likes me. No, n/a, I will NOT show you my boobs. Anyway i know ill just be alone with cats so I'll so I'll show all you m—fkrs I'll find young beta guys until I'm too old but now I still can i don't really want to i just…" etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum

    And yes, Neecy, you can find someone who will love you. In fact, take this Zorro Primo fella right here. I mean it, TAKE HIM! He gets moose drool all over the place at the mere mention of your name and quite frankly, he's starting to make the other animals VERY nervous.

    That, or you may be interested in a late-thirties-ish handsome cowboy…

    …If I ever meet such a specimen I'll send him your way!

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    • Liza207
      Dec 06, 2011 @ 14:12:12

      Mark,

      Neecy, will be tickled pink by this. I know I was. Thank you. LOL!

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    • Neecy
      Dec 06, 2011 @ 15:42:47

      ahahahaaaaa!!! mark gets the Gold star for funniest comments today. LOL

      The thought of mark not liking me makes me sad 😦 I’m glad however, that I did *something*? to make him change his mind?

      yeah I remember those heartiste days. WHo was that chick Neecy? My God! Oh and BTW it wasn’t N/A who was always asking to see my boobs it was NEIL HANSEN. LMAO.

      I have learned one thing about mysef trough the years. people either love me or they hate me. No in between.

      And my Zorro Primo. you know the first day I posted on heartiste he was there – always keeping me entertained and telling me to not get caught up in the craziness. We bonded from the jump. he gave me my first official NEG! Awwwww….

      Ahh, those were the days!!!

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      • zorro
        Dec 07, 2011 @ 22:10:51

        “keeping me entertained and telling me to not get caught up in the craziness.”

        You were the craziness, Missy!

        …and as for me getting moose drool all over the place, Mr Slater, I’ll have you know that…well…umm…yeah, you’re probably right about that. Maybe I should get one of those bibs with a lobster on it?

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        • Neecy
          Dec 07, 2011 @ 22:26:03

          Do you remember the neg you gave me? But you were kind enough to tell me right after I called foul that you were negging me. that was my first lesson of a neg. AWWWWW The good ole days! LOL

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          • zorro
            Dec 07, 2011 @ 22:31:27

            Was it about your shoes? I have great shoe negs.

            If not, why don’t you play the dutiful wife and remind me of the silly things I do in public?

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    • MK
      Dec 06, 2011 @ 16:44:53

      Mark,
      You bring up around an interesting point around what becomes of a woman who is “A woman who is plain, however, will find her options rather more limited despite chastity, sweetness, attentiveness, and other desirable virtues.”

      I have often thought about this as well and have to admit this is the type I’d like to go for. My ideal match would be those virtues in a woman I am attracted to I just didn’t implement that right first go around. Learning and practicing game is giving me a lot of options but it is MY responsibility to be wiser this go around.

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      • Neecy
        Dec 07, 2011 @ 07:55:22

        MK,

        I actully think its a shame that a woman with all those qualities would have limited options just b/c she is plain looking. That further proves why men will hardly ever find or have quality relationships anymore with women like in the past. men these days complain that good women are hard to find, yet they don’t want a plain Jane with the best feminine qualities just b/c of her looks?

        I say men get exactly what they deserve when they place a premium on the woman’s looks and overlook bad qualities just b/c of how she looks. And hence, why so many Beta guys and men in general these days are getting burned.

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        • MK
          Dec 07, 2011 @ 08:31:06

          Men often focus on looks to their detriment as women focus on alpha like qualities to their detriment.

          Both you and Roissy have said we get the partner we deserve and I think there is some truth to that

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          • Neecy
            Dec 07, 2011 @ 08:40:23

            Very true. Its fine to have an ideal but when you try to make that a reality its gonna be a huge problem. i am smart enough and realistic enough to be able to seperate my ultimate desires from reality. People today are so caught up in their own fantasy islands that they become completely engulfed in shit that doesn’t really matter.

            Like I said there is nothing wrong with wanting a hot mate, but when that become your compass for relationships, you’re screwed.

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            • Liza207
              Dec 07, 2011 @ 09:05:50

              Yes, we all want to live on Fantasy Island but only a chosen few will so most of us need to be realistic. Men and women need make a honest assessment of what they can bring to the table and what they can actually get in a mate and just learn to be satisfied with that. I have no problem being someone on my attractiveness level or a bit below. I have always preferred decent, laid guys as well. But, since I have always been passive about interactiing men I have never really connected with them. I know the guy I will eventually settlement down with will be and has to be that type of guy. I believe that the key to having a successful relationship with him is that I will have let him know what I want expect from him upfornt.

              I may be ramblings here. It is time to get back to work.

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              • Neecy
                Dec 07, 2011 @ 21:38:06

                This is JUSt it Liza.

                Too many people are not realistic about what they are bringing to the table and also not realistic about what they are most likely to be able to pull in terms of a mate. Everyone wants the hottest man or woman but its like uhm are you even that hot to be demanding that? LOL

                I have a friend who when we were both overweight, had a nice guy on her job who was interested in her. There was also another guy on the job she was crushing on – he was quite fit and in shape with a nice masculine body and he worked out a lot. The other guy who liked her, He was somewhat overweight himself. So one day he asked her out and she declined. Well one night we were on the phone and she was like “so and so finally asked me out.” So I got excited for her and said ”That’s awesome he seems like he’d be fun”. Do you know she had the nerve to say she turned him down b/c she likes her men “fit” like the other guy who was cut up and had no body fat. LMAO.

                I was like “huh?” I said but you aren’t fit how can you demand that a man be fit if you aren’t fit? Needless to say we ended up in a little argument and she called me a hater. LOL A hater b/c I told you flat out that you cannot demand what you aren’t. That a big/fat girl is going to put down a big /fat man and believe she has the right to a fitter in shape man? Unbelievable.

                Some people are really delusional.

                Like I said. Every single person has their fantasy and ideal man or woman they’d kill to be with. But once you stop being realistic and recognizing that just b/c you like or want something doesn’t mean you deserve or should get it.
                The relationship market is full of delusional people who think all their desires should be fulfilled no matter what they look like or are bringing to the table.

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  13. MK
    Dec 06, 2011 @ 16:12:49

    Looking for some help for some brave souls of this site (I know neecy’s in). I promise you’ll get some good consultation equivalent of what you’d pay pretty big bucks to a shrink for. If your brave comment directly in the link below if not email me and I will keep it confidential (mtk@ manfortheages.com minus the space)

    I plan to review this process and upgrade using my recently ended marriage as the test case but need a few willing volunteers to assist with the refinement of it.

    http://manfortheages.com/relationship-change-analysis/

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  14. omerta327
    Dec 06, 2011 @ 16:39:04

    Alright, I need to ask a stupid, off-topic, technical question.

    When I quote someone in a reply, how do I italicize it?

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  15. Liza207
    Dec 07, 2011 @ 08:11:06

    The whole man are just interested in looks and nothing else is only something I have heard in the manosphere. Most of the men there are highly dysfunctional, extremely insecure and anti-women. As I said, they only focus on women’s looks and ages because that is the best and fastest way to put women down. Emotionally healthy men when looking for female companionship is often seeking more. He wants a woman with whom he is compatible in terms of her values, morals, religious affiliation and goals. He wants to know that she is pleasant to be around and that they can get along well and appreciate him. In addition, if he wants a family, he needs know whether she will be a mother for his children. This is how high functioning men that view women in a healthy way think.

    So, you’re just going to enter into a marriage or ltr with a woman just because she makes your dick hard and she could be some slut that has been riding the dick carousel since the age of 13, a drug addict, a complete moron, with absolutely no morals and a shitty attitude but the only thing that matters is that she is hot/beautiful. Really?

    Any time I have met men who wanted to enter a relationship with me after knowing me for two minutes were usually nut jobs you do not know me at all and a two-hour date isn’t sufficient enough time to know me as a woman.

    Men should stop the nonsense with this already when they know that they need more from a woman than just her looks in order have a successful union.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 07, 2011 @ 08:24:31

      ITA Liza! men these days are getting exactly what they deserve and ask for when they simply place higher value on a woman b/c of her looks and not her qualities as a person or woman. Of course I am not saying that men should not be attracted to the woman, but other qualities plus physical attraction is the package that men should be going for.

      The fact that as Mark said a “plain looking woman” with the best feminine qualities (sweet, attentive, kind, chaste, and other desirable virtues) would have limited options in men *JUST* b/c she is plain looking is really sad, yet telling as to why so many men are getting burned, cheated on, used, divorced and taken to the bank, ending up with women who have major issues etc. B/C they don’t seem to care about the true qualities that make a woman a woman other than she needs to be hot and not “plain”.

      As much as i love a hot stud, there is no way in HAIL i’m going to end upo with a man that does not have great qualities that make him a wonderful and good person to be with and around.

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      • Liza207
        Dec 07, 2011 @ 08:37:15

        The men today are of very low quality and no clue what a quality woman embodies. If you’re giving up the booty in three minutes they’re gone. It has become a really sad situation.

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        • Neecy
          Dec 07, 2011 @ 08:44:17

          YEP! And some men in the manosphere actually tell and encourage men that if a woman is not giving up the arse in a short period of time, then she is not worth dealing with. LOL unbeliavable. LOW QUALITY indeed.

          And yet again, why men are struggling with Game and all sorts of stuff to try to get women these days. if they went for the women with the best feminine qualities there would be less divorces and longer lasting realtionships and very little need to “game” women. They created the monster and now they gotta come up with ways to keep and get the monster. OH WELL!

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      • n/a
        Dec 07, 2011 @ 13:34:37

        @ Neecy & Liza,

        Men don’t “place a value” on a woman’s looks in some conscious way. In fact, they think about it exactly as much as a dog “thinks about it” when you throw a piece of meat on the floor.

        This is what neither of you truly understand about men. Men, sexual men, move by instincts that are ridiculously simple and ridiculously deep. So, when a man sees a girlish beauty in her prime, his balls tingle and his brain is replaced. There is nothing else to it.

        Later, when the fever is broken, men can be as picky as women. But real men are sharks when it comes to fine pussy — we catch that scent a mile away.

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        • Liza207
          Dec 07, 2011 @ 14:03:53

          Hi n/a,

          Women don’t “place a value” on a man’s looks in some conscious way. In fact, they think about it exactly as much as a dog “thinks about it” when you throw a piece of meat on the floor.

          This is what men refused to accept about women. Women, sexual women, move by instincts, as well, that are ridiculously simple and ridiculously deep. So, when a woman sees a hot guy in his prime, her vagina tingles and her brain is replaced. There is nothing else to it.

          Later, when the fever is broken, and she becomes picky. But women are sharks
          when it comes to fine dick — we also catch that scent a mile away.

          Why do men refuse to accept this?

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          • n/a
            Dec 07, 2011 @ 16:21:33

            Men get hard for looks; women get wet for charm.

            Very different things.

            The best looking man becomes meaningless when a woman realizes the man has no charisma.

            A beautiful woman always looks exactly as fine to a man, as long as the beauty lasts.

            There is no equivalence. None.

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            • Neecy
              Dec 07, 2011 @ 21:55:58

              N/A how can you as a man tell us as women what we like and want? You say that Liza and I don’t understand men, but you are telling us what women like so you are doing the same thing no?

              If all men needed was charm, then why do men even bother trying to look good, stay in shape, smell nice, etc.? Just so they can look in the mirror and turn themselves on? To attract other men (if they are hetero)?

              Come on! Men work hard at looking good b/c the ones who get it, know that women are very visual and will always give first dibs to the *VISUALLY* attractive guy.

              Also an attractive man will most likely have an easier time with a woman than one she is not attracted to. Attractive people in general will always have and be given first dibs in the dating arena.

              I’m sorry but a man can have all the charm in the world, but if he doesn’t physically turn me on, it’s not even going to get to the next level. Yes, even if he has money. There was a man who was well off that was interested in me and I simply could not bring myself to even going there b/c I can’t fake or pretend being attracted to someone if I’m not. I was totally unnattracted to him even though he was quite well off.

              i am aware a lot of women will marry and go out with men they are not attracted to if he has money and I never understood that. there is not enough money, charm or anything in the world that would make me wanna wake up next to a man I have no physical attraction to. Some women are simply more materialistically driven and can grin and bare their way through a relationship with a man they are completely repulsed by simply for financial security.

              So b/c of those kinds of women, men assume that all women can and do overlook their visual attractiveness to a man. NOPE!

              A well balanced woman wants a man she is attracted to – he doesn’t have to be a drop dead gorg hottie. All he has to have is enough phsycially to meet her physical and visual attraction standards. But the point is WOMEN LIKE ATTRACTIVE MEN JUST AS MEN LIKE ATTRACTIVE WOMEN.

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              • n/a
                Dec 07, 2011 @ 22:38:21

                Neecy,

                I tell women what they like and want all the time, usually from behind, in a whisper.

                ***********

                You are studiously missing the point. The looks of a man are often transformed by a woman’s sense of his charm — and that quality has nothing in particular to do with money.

                And women are charmed by *very* many male attributes that have little or nothing to do with a man’s mere looks.

                The way a man *acts* can very often make him look *beautiful* in the eyes of the woman who’s in love with him; however, the way a woman acts will rarely make a man change his view of her beauty.

                My claim is not — absurdly — that women pay no attention to male looks. They do. But a man’s looks are often at the bottom of the list when it comes to how well he wears on a woman.

                A beautiful woman can bore me all day long and I’ll still enjoy the night. When a man bores a woman, well, he’s gone.

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                • Neecy
                  Dec 08, 2011 @ 09:29:01

                  Neecy,

                  I tell women what they like and want all the time, usually from behind, in a whisper.

                  😯 😳 Uhm lol Alrighty then!

                  You are studiously missing the point. The looks of a man are often transformed by a woman’s sense of his charm — and that quality has nothing in particular to do with money.

                  And women are charmed by *very* many male attributes that have little or nothing to do with a man’s mere looks.

                  I agree with this here. But it seemed you were saying that all a man had to have was charm to turn a woman on. My argument is that charm and charm alone will not cut it. Just like you argue that looks and looks alone won’t cut it. Yes, for women its mainly an aggregate of things that make a man appealing to her. But a lot of men try to throw looks out of the equation for obvious reasons.

                  My claim is not — absurdly — that women pay no attention to male looks. They do. But a man’s looks are often at the bottom of the list when it comes to how well he wears on a woman.

                  Yes that is *AFTER* she has gotten to know him. The same can be said about men too. A woman who may not be as hot as he wishes can grow on him based on how she carries herself, treats him and other good qualities she may have.

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        • Neecy
          Dec 07, 2011 @ 21:21:02

          N/A I understand men may have these reactions naturally, but then there is a thing called evolving beyond raw lust. That is what we’re talking about – the men who don’t and end up in shitty situations with shitty women simply b/c they look good. men who simply use their natural raw lust as the sole compass for determining a woman’s value. Its done ALL.THE.TIME.

          Yes men do consciously place a value on a woman’s looks. When you have men issuing out numbers to determine a woman’s looks on a scale of 1-10, then men *ARE* consciously placing a value on a woman’s looks.

          A lot of men simply feel if a woman is hot and has a boatload of other flaws she is a catch. YET is a woman is a Plain jane but comes with awesome other womanly qualities she is not a catch. Evolved mature and healthy men who have a nice healthy balance would never use a woman’s attractiveness as the *SOLE* determinant of her value as a partner for a relationship.

          Unfortunately, when low value men are doing the picking and choosing, they will always and only choose by looks and nothing more. As Liza and I said, the world is full of low quality and low value men and therefore they choose female partners solely for looks and thus why so many men have issues with women in their relationships.

          A plain Jane with top notch feminine qualities can be highly attractive to a man who does not simply use lust as his guiding factor in having a long-term and stable relationship. Especially if he wants children.

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          • n/a
            Dec 07, 2011 @ 22:45:14

            Neecy,

            You need to read Proust.

            “All this — for a woman who wasn’t even my type…”

            Proust would appreciate your ability — which is truly awesome — to write at generous length.

            “Evolved” and “mature” men? Plenty of them right here on your blog. Go get one.

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            • Neecy
              Dec 08, 2011 @ 09:00:48

              Proust would appreciate your ability — which is truly awesome — to write at generous length.

              WAIT! are you saying you enjoy my long winded, gramatically incorrect at times, spelling masacred essays????? LOL 😀

              “Evolved” and “mature” men? Plenty of them right here on your blog. Go get one..

              💡 You do know there was a blog i frequented and one of the commenters ended up marrying a guy who always posted on her blog. Hmmmm

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  16. Liza207
    Dec 07, 2011 @ 08:51:53

    They have been pedestalising their women for centuries and now the chicken has come home to…

    Oh, well indeed.

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  17. Marellus
    Dec 07, 2011 @ 09:06:55

    And, smoking is YUCKY!! Please don’t smoke its sooo bad for you and it smells bad. LOL

    Then come and kiss me !!! And I don’t want just any kiss … I want a censor-kiss !!!. And what is a censor-kiss ?! … well in the good ole days, them censors didn’t like to see the guy and the girl waltz off to the nearest bedroom, and then start hyperventilating … no sirrreeee … they could only kiss … for a kiss … by a kiss … with a kiss …

    I’m talking Bogart and Bergman in “Casablanca”. I’m talking Gable and Leigh in “Gone With The Wind”. And I am talking George Bush and his pet dog Millie in front of the White House press core !!!

    (I’ve always wondered why he said that Millie knew more about foreign policy than some other bozos)

    Now before you put on your flame-red lipstick, I gotta ask ya one thing : Have you ever seen any of these movies ?

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  18. Mark Slater
    Dec 07, 2011 @ 16:51:23

    Liza207 said:

    “Yes, we all want to live on Fantasy Island but only a chosen few will so most of us need to be realistic. Men and women need make a honest assessment of what they can bring to the table and what they can actually get in a mate and just learn to be satisfied with that.”

    [sigh] You people *still* aren’t getting it. Do you remember what I wrote about falling in love (Heartiste’s much maligned “Oneitis”) Eventually, we all fall in love. It may not be with someone who fits our “100-point checklist” and it will certainly be with an imperfect and flawed individual.

    Think back on YOU have fallen in love with. Was he perfect? Flawless? Guys, was she an absolute “10” in the SMP?

    Without love and romance (does that even exist anymore), we are all just a number in the Sexual Market Place with a pre-set Sexual Martket Value, not much better than evaluating a used car.

    I’m not suggesting that we should become idiots when we fancy and individual — in fact, that’s when our discernment ought to be MOST acute, but I just can’t understand what has happened to falling in love, or even merely “liking” someone with whom we’d like to get to know better.

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    • Liza207
      Dec 07, 2011 @ 17:25:47

      Mark,

      Are you in disagreement with my statement or are you not? I am not sure. LOL!

      And no, not every man I have fallen for was a 10 but close (and I am being honest here).

      It’s true we have reduced each other to numbers and I have been gulity of this as well.

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    • omerta327
      Dec 07, 2011 @ 17:56:54

      I don’t think oneitis equates to falling in love. I think it has more to do with ‘over-idealizing’ someone, I guess.

      It’s looking at a girl and saying, “Wow. This girl is PERFECT. There’s no other girl quite like her”, and pedestalizing her as such.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 07, 2011 @ 22:09:38

      Mark,

      I think its totally insane that men and women have been relegated to numbers. Its like the SMP is the new DMV. This whole number system is totally ridiculous.

      My philosophy – you are either fugly, ugly, unnattractive, cute, attractive, adorable, hot, gorgoues, handsome, pretty, beautiful, etc. that’s how I rate a person.

      When did this stupid number system come into place? UGH!

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  19. Liza207
    Dec 07, 2011 @ 17:09:16

    What I really need to know why it is that men feel that they know women better than we know ourselves? What in the world makes men an authority on the psychology of women?

    I am a woman, so that right there makes me more of an authority than men are when it comes to the way women think, period.

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    • omerta327
      Dec 07, 2011 @ 17:50:37

      Huh? I don’t think ANY man would make that claim.

      I mean, sure, one of the main ideas behind learning ‘game’ is to lend some observational insights into womens’ behaviors and tendencies, so that men can have a better understanding of the dynamics of dating and the SMP. But even with that, it’s tough enough to really get to know any woman (or anyone for that matter), let alone women as a whole.

      It’s like, if you’re a football coach, you can watch film on your next opponent 20 hours a day all week to learn their tendencies, formations, etc. But even when you take all that knowledge onto the field, you still have no idea what’s really gonna happen until the ball is snapped.

      If any guy told me that he understands women better than they understand themselves, I’d laugh right in the fool’s face.

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      • Liza207
        Dec 07, 2011 @ 19:11:09

        “If any guy told me that he understands women better than they understand themselves, I’d laugh right in the fool’s face.”

        However, the impression I get is that men think they do and are constantly arguing with us and browbeating us about what we should think on this subject. it’s enough already.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 07, 2011 @ 22:12:02

      LIZA ME TOO? Inquiring minds want to know why some men feel they know women more than women know themselves, yet will be first to tell women that they know *NOTHING* about men. 😕 LOL

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      • n/a
        Dec 07, 2011 @ 22:50:11

        There is a special way to get to know the minds of women really well.

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      • MK
        Dec 08, 2011 @ 07:26:10

        I think your confusing points. The general lesson is to pay attention to what a woman does and NOT what she says or says she wants. By this you can truly know her and then determine if she is worth the trouble and apply game accordingly with variations based on her individual preferences.

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        • Neecy
          Dec 08, 2011 @ 08:52:19

          You do know MK that women are also taught and told the same thing about men as well – pay attention to what a man does and not what he says. men say a lot of CRAP but its their actions that speak the loudest.

          So its safe to say that for both sexes that theory applies and should be used.

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    • zorro
      Dec 09, 2011 @ 01:01:55

      If you want to know about female psychology, date one!

      You’ve just presented a solipsism. That you have a female mind is precisely why you will know less than the average man.

      If a woman were to ask me what men are like on dates, I couldn’t tell her because I don’t date men. Being a man is irrelevant. We understand more about what we are attracted to and study than ourselves. This is why doctors are forbidden to self-diagnose. A human being cannot be objective about him/herself.

      MOOSE PLAGUE!

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  20. bob
    Dec 07, 2011 @ 18:36:49

    Here I go and not check up on you for a day or so, and look what you’ve gotten yourself into:

    Mr. Google says:


    invaluable

    adj.
    Of inestimable value; priceless,

    [as in]: invaluable paintings; invaluable help.

    Women traveling and paying for sex is just a continuation of the cock-carousel through other means.

    The correct way for everybody is for the woman to not get on the cock carousel (and therfore not reward the man who insist that they do); find a good man you love and respect and vice versa; get married and stay that way.

    Find such a man by staying out of bars/clubs, engaging in some sort of meaningful hobby or pastime where like-minded men are, and *keep your legs together until everybody knows what is really going on* (thereby filtering out PUAs and psychos in the process).

    Sadly Marriage 2.0 and especially Divorce 2.0 make that an exceedingly bad deal for the man.

    So, unfortunately, the odds against that seem tremendous.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 07, 2011 @ 22:22:30

      😳 😥 OH DEAR GAWWWWWD BOB.!Now I must say I am *ACTUALLY* embaressed at my improper usage of the word “invaluable” 😮 EGADS! Uuuh how many times did I use it in the article? NVM please don’t remind me! *running to hide in a corner*

      I compleeeetely screweed that one up huh? And I calle dmyself tellign it like it is! LOL Tsk tsk Neecy

      _____________________________________________

      In terms of women and sex tourism, I think its disgusting, but I can’t say that I honestly don’t understand the mindset some of these women are using when doing so. They feel they have a right to pursue whatever it is they want and need. *shrugs* The scarey and sad thing is, its increasing with even younger women (some still in thier primes) doing it as well. Women have gone haywire, but i can’;t completely say a lot of it doesn’t have to do with men helping them become that way.

      ______________________________________________

      Boy you sure know how to start some controversy – so now we’re going to have a big ole war about MARRAIGE? LOL

      Like Liza said, if a man chooses a woman wisely (you know that plain jane with all the great feminine qualities that has limited options in men cause she is not drop dead gorg?) he won;t have to worry about divorce or being stuck with some lunatic. If men stop picking and choosing their Long-term mates and future baby mommas with their dicks and used a wittle bit of their brain matter and common sense they would avoid marrying these loonies who later divorve them over stupid stuff or who turn out to be whatever it is they regret about marrying them in the first place.

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  21. Liza207
    Dec 07, 2011 @ 19:12:25

    “Sadly Marriage 2.0 and especially Divorce 2.0 make that an exceedingly bad deal for the man.”

    Not if he chooses wisely.

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    • zorro
      Dec 07, 2011 @ 19:26:03

      100%: The positive response percentage you will receive if you ask every single man walking down the aisle if he chose wisely.

      I’ll get married right after I’m certified by the FBI as a professional behavioral profiler.

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    • bob
      Dec 07, 2011 @ 20:03:52

      Liza,

      Let me rephrase:

      “Marriage 2.0 and especially Divorce 2.0 make that an exceedingly risky deal for the man.”

      If he chooses very wisely, it can be good.

      If he chooses anything else, his life can be made a complete, unmitigated disaster, for no reason other than his wife got a tingle for something else. If the wife is a witch, she can make false accusation of domestic violence or child-abuse and in either case the man is presumed guilty – sometimes even after being proven innocent. False accusations typcially go unpunished.

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  22. Neecy
    Dec 07, 2011 @ 22:27:00

    Liza my friend you are looking QUITE the hotness. Thanks 😉

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    • Liza207
      Dec 08, 2011 @ 06:08:49

      Yes, he is quite the hotness. Noah Mills is a supermodel/actor and the hottest man on the planet- well in my opinion. I was getting a little tired of the monster gravatar–sorry. He is much nicer to look at.

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      • Neecy
        Dec 08, 2011 @ 09:19:35

        Geezus H. Kristmas that man is pure hotness! Good avatar call.

        *although I am reeling from the monster changes. I loved the monsters!!!!*

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  23. Liza207
    Dec 08, 2011 @ 06:21:13

    And all that, N/A, was saying about charm is just wishful thinking.

    Matt, makes you wonder what? And then again, why should I care.

    Z, aren’t most of the men in the manosphere sitting around blaming women for all their problems and the problems in the world?

    Oh, I get it. I’m not Neecy, so it is all on me. Although, we share just about the same opinions. This would really bother me if I cared, whatever.

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    • MK
      Dec 08, 2011 @ 07:33:11

      I think the opposite is true. To get to the manosphere most men had to come to the realization that their approach isn’t working and sought a better way. This takes humility for a man vs. thinking your have all the answers.

      I know guys who continue to just blame the women for the negative encounters and they never find the manosphere and are way more bitter and blaming then men in the “manosphere”

      Think about it by attempting to learn game is saying stuff I was doing before was counterproductive to my desired success and I need to make changes (or inversely stuff I was not doing is what I should have been doing). The deep thinkers like Roissy don’t blame women at all in fact the opposite they abdicate most women because it is biology/mating patterns at play and most people in general are clueless to how things work. You can’t get bitter about someone following biology.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 08, 2011 @ 09:16:10

      Liza I don’t understand their issues with what you said! the fact is as you pointed out – men are happily encouraging, teaching and promoting things like “NEGS” throughout the manosphere to take women down a notch and allow him to gain the upper hand in an interaction with a woman he’s interested in by making her feel insecure by negging her. Uhm how does that translate to you blaming men for the reason why women are insecure when MEN ADMITTEDLY are doing things to make women feel insecure like NEGS???

      Yes men play a great role in trying to keep women feeling bad about themselves about things out of a woman’s control – age and looks. They Looooove to point out and harp on the whole *women have a short window of desirability in the SMP* meme . Yeah they are not doing that to make women feel insecure? Pssssh!

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    • Zorro
      Dec 08, 2011 @ 12:56:31

      Most people on the Internet behave like 5 year olds (and I do sometimes when I’m in a mood). Under no circumstances should you believe most men or women are like what they appear on Internet blogs!!!!!!!

      You give a perfectly normal person complete anonymity and an audience and watch them turn into a freakazoid.

      I’ll bet every man at Chateau Pump & Dump is perfectly delighted to blame the human female for his hair loss, global warming and the decrease in the deer population. I spend a lot of time on women’s blogs (getting fashion tips, apple strudel recipes and just dishing on men like it’s 1953), and women very much blame men for EVERYTHING!

      I blame anonymity and a faceless audience. The Internet is an open sewer of bizarro behavior, like a circus. You can watch, but don’t let it make an impression.

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  24. Neecy
    Dec 08, 2011 @ 09:09:34

    This is in response to Matt and Zorro’s comment to Liza

    Matt & Zorro,

    I don’t think that is a fair thing to say about Liza. As Liza pointed out, on blogs like Heartiste’s there are thousands of men on there blaming women for everything wrong in their lives, in the world and why the sun didn’t shine that day. How can you say that an honest assessment of something men do TO LITERALLY MAKE A WOMAN FEEL INSECURE (i.e. negging) is Liza trying to blame men for why women feel insecure. Is it not so that men use Negs to make women INSECURE??? Is it not so that a lot of men hapr on women’;s ages and looks to make women feel helpless and insecure about things they have no control over?

    Not getting the argument against her here. She is pointing out what men have admitted to doing to gain the upper hand on women. By negging a woman (something quite celebrated and encouraged in the manosphere) men are activley looking to make a woman feel insecure about something.

    Liza is pointing out the cause and effect – which is that soon enough men will also be held accountable for their looks and will be made to feel insecure for the same things they have been attmepting to do to women to gain the upper hand.

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    • MK
      Dec 08, 2011 @ 09:26:40

      Neecy,
      I see you feel and strongly believe that many men attempt to make women feel insecure and that concerns you. I would argue no one can ever make another individual feel insecure its a choice to feel insecure or not. Inner confidence means not accepting another person’s negative emotions/frame and not letting it affect your own internal compass.

      Just as its not the woman’s job to make a “beta male” confident or desirable its not a man’s job to make a woman feel confident. Confidence comes from within.

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      • Neecy
        Dec 08, 2011 @ 09:42:51

        MK

        I completely agree and please understand that for the most part I, as a woman feel very good about myself. There was a time I didn’t but it wasn’t b/c of anyone else making me feel insecure (actually people kept telling me I looked good when I knew I didn’t).

        What Liza and I are saying and constantly pointing out is moreso venting about men who actually believe that making women feel insecure about things out of their control is only going to come back to bite men in the ass eventually. Its already starting to b/c women are becomming just as tough, shallow and as harsh about men’s looks and SMV as men have been for the longest.

        Its true everything you said, but that doesn’t mean there should not be discussions on these things and dissecting why these things occur. i have also pointed out that feminist women seek to emasculate men and make men feel bad for being men. So it works both ways. Speaking about it doesn;t necessarily mean the person is completely engulfed in judging themselves based on what others are saying about them, but ratrher pointing out why its a shitty way of thinking and the causes and effects of what happens when that is done (trying to make people feel insecure for htings out of thier control).

        For me it is what it is. I accept where my place is in the SMP. But i have a problem with men trying to act as if they stay forever hot and young and women will always find them hot studs no matter what age they are, while women expire at 30. that is a LIE and men need to realize they too have an expiration date, they too need to keep themselve sup physically, and THEY TOO need to stop making women feel that its just us with this issue.

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    • Zorro
      Dec 08, 2011 @ 12:57:44

      Matt & Zorro,

      I don’t think that is a fair thing to say about Liza.

      I’m trying to find my comment about Liza. What was that? I don’t recall writing anything nasty either about her or to her.

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    • Matt
      Dec 08, 2011 @ 16:15:51

      Neecy,

      I can’t answer for Zorro, nor will I. What I am questioning is:

      “This is way negs are so affective on women it plays on our insecurities with our looks–an insecurity that men have created by telling that is all we are worth. Therefore, giving them control.”

      First and foremost, a ‘neg’ is not an insult. It’s a slightly pointed flirt. It’s not intended to harm. The intent is to playfully reframe the interaction in such a way that the woman has to prove herself worthy of the man’s time. Women do the EXACT SAME THING albeit in much more subtle ways. The dismissive wave, the “elevator eyes” then turning away, the fact that they TRAVEL IN PACKS to intimidate less confident men, etc. Whereas a man will make a playful comment on her state of dress, she’ll make a pointed look at his old shoes or ancient car.

      I’m very sorry to point this out, but women are naturally self-conscious of how they look, MUCH more than men. (Men use “you’re ugly” or some variation on it so frequently it’s become a greeting among buddies). I’ve seen little girls fix their hair and clothing in order to look better. Boys of the same age don’t do this. (Hell, men’s fashion was almost never a concern until very recently, well after the “Feminization” of men had occurred. Throughout history, men didn’t have fashion, we had CLOTHES). So, if that’s the case, then ‘negging’ a woman based on her clothing or looks is simply the easy way to flirt. A woman that takes offense to such a trivial comment is not worth the time. She may even fit into the “crazy” zone.

      Men have NOT told women that looks are all they are worth. I really don’t understand where this idea even came from. Men, throughout history, hold GOOD women in very high regard. (Read Proverbs 31:10-31 for a Biblical description of what a good woman is to a man. Note that looks are not mentioned at all, except in the negative at the end). But a woman who only dresses to show herself off will be appraised on her looks alone; exactly like a guy who spends all of his time in the gym and dressed to kill. If women want to be appraised on their personality, knowledge, expertise, etc. then they need to stop dressing like they’re showing off the goods all the time. If a women walks into a room dressed in a revealing, skimpy outfit, then what does she expect? That men will look at her and say “Gee, she must have a great personality! I’ll bet she’s highly educated and totally worth the time to get to know on an emotional and personal level!!!!!”. See, the problem is that when a woman wears a low-cut, scoop necked blouse that shows her entire chest to the world, she genuinely believes that guys are admiring her fashion sense. At the risk of sounding old-fashioned, dress conservatively and watch as men treat you more like a person and less like a pin-up.

      The last bit “therefore, giving them control”. Yes, it is giving us control. That said, as we’ve talked about before, in every relationship there will be one partner who leads and one who follows. A man who is keeping the woman off-balance is almost guaranteed to be leading. She won’t be bored. Didn’t you write an entire post about how women like Submission? If that’s correct, then why is “giving them control” a bad thing? If a woman is worried that a man she’s yielded control to is going to hurt her, then she shouldn’t be with him. Personal responsibility is a great thing and women should be held accountable for their own decisions the same as men are. Women can’t have it both ways. Either you want to be submissive, in which case “giving them control” is good. Or you want to be either the same as, or dominant, to men; in which case men will treat you accordingly. Am I missing something here?

      It has been my experience, both first-hand and through observation, that there is, in general, almost an inverse relationship between good looks and good character. What that means is that if you find a guy that’s a solid 10, the likelihood of him being long-term relationship material is slim to none. This same thing applies to women. So, make a choice on what you want and follow through. If a woman is looking for a one-night stand, then take the 10. But if you want more, then decide what you want, decide what you can reasonably live with and set your sights lower. You’re much more likely to be happy.

      This is why I believe that women have a visual COMPONENT to their attraction. But while that’s all that’s needed for men to decide to have sex, women need more than that. The line above about “a tenderness that the world is denying them” confirms this. Men do not care about that tenderness. They pay for the sex act. Women pay for the fantasy before the act. Once again, the difference is not in what men and women are doing. The difference is in WHY they’re doing it.

      The true irony of this situation is that if a woman had actually gotten married to any of the host of guys that were interested in her when she was young, she wouldn’t need to pay for a fantasy. An actual man would be showing her the tenderness she was craving.

      “Once we start focusing on their looks primarily they will become just as insecure and just as suseptable. They really fear this.”

      No, we REALLY DON’T fear this. To think that men react the same as women in all circumstances is to show a frighteningly large misunderstanding of men and women. Men don’t care about half of what seriously offends women, just like women don’t understand a lot about what seriously offends men. To think that we share the same insecurities is to believe that men and women are exactly the same, which we aren’t. You’ve written about the differences between men and women at length on this blog. I’m not sure why this idea of sameness is accepted here.

      Men would LOVE to be reduced down to our looks because then we wouldn’t have to work as hard as we do now. Why bother trying to impress women if I can either succeed or fail just based on what I look like? It’d be liberating.

      I can’t speak for all men, but a woman that judges me simply based on the way I look is not worth the time for me to deal with. There are plenty of women around, either in Canada/US or foreign, that are usually of much higher character, that appreciate and value what a man can do. If I have to continually prove my worth to some twit based solely on what I look like or how I dress, then she can go to Hell. I would say that women should use the same strategy when selecting a man. If a woman doesn’t, then again she has only herself to blame when he leaves or treats her badly.

      I enjoy reading what both you and Liza have to say. What I want is an explanation on why it is men’s fault whenever some of the collective shortcomings of women are mentioned.

      Unlike many people I’ve met, when I enter a debate I’m genuinely interested in what my “opponent” has to say. I’m open to being wrong and will be the first to admit it when I am. I have no inclination to steamroll their opinion with mine. But in order for me to take what my “opponent” has to say with sincerity, I need some actual explanation and/or facts. Not a blanket statement followed by “I won’t deal with this now”.

      Also, on the topic of women’s age. The simple reason for men wanting young women is children. The biological reason to have sex is to produce offspring. Relationships, love, pleasure, etc. are things that spring from the hearts, minds and souls of humans. But, biologically, sex is for procreation.

      A woman over the age of 28 is going to have a harder time successfully producing healthy children. At age 28 – 35, a woman’s reproductive equipment starts to shut down. It shuts down faster if she’s never had a child. While I think that men that show cruelty to women over the age of 35 are slime, the fact that men select younger women in order to maximize the potential for healthy offspring is not something they should have to apologise for. The drive for men to leave behind kids is extremely strong. Biologically, a man will select a mate that gives him the greatest chance of success.

      This is not a political issue. The only reason it’s even a problem now is that women today think that they can wait until they’re 30+ before having children. That they can have a full career AND children. It’s a political lie that they’ve been told since the 70’s and 80’s, if not earlier. Nature and men have other priorities.

      In the long run, Nature is not mocked. She will not wait for humanity to indulge their desires. She will trump any and all politics. Which sucks for women wanting careers AND kids, but they have to make a choice. If they want kids, the career has to be put on hold or sacrificed. You can NOT have it all.

      Modern day Western women AND men would do well to remember this.

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      • bob
        Dec 08, 2011 @ 17:16:38

        It has been my experience, both first-hand and through observation, that there is, in general, almost an inverse relationship between good looks and good character…..But if you want more, then decide what you want, decide what you can reasonably live with and set your sights lower.

        It’s not really setting your sights lower. It’s having a view that is not one-dimensional.

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      • Liza207
        Dec 08, 2011 @ 18:12:17

        Matt,

        As I said I don’t want to belabor this. If you ever studied sociology there is a social dynamic that is often covered–the social dynamic of socialized gender roles. Women are socialized to behave in a particular manner and men another. So, in a sense our actual biological nature are often suppressed to give way to our taught behavior that society dictates.

        At an early age, girls are geared towards playing with dolls and other toys that are considered feminine. I liked some boy toys but I was often told I couldn’t play with them just because I was a girl. I loved Transformers (bullshit, a cool toy is a cool toy). And of course, boys should only play with trucks and trains (a lot of little girls thought trains were cool) which were consider more masculine. I had a male cousin who liked the dolls I played with too and he grew up to be a straight man. It wasn‘t until he was told that boys should not play with dolls and that they were only for girls did he stop. Every little boy has been told, “boys don’t cry” and “boys don’t show their emotions” Men have tear ducts and feelings just like women so why can’t they–socialization says they cannot–expressing emotions are only for women (nonsense). Men should only wear pants, why? At one time, women could not wear pants, why? Men could not wear their hair long, again why? A man’s hair can grow as long as a woman’s, so why should they be chastised for wearing it that way. I could go on and on.

        We have been socialized as men and women to behavior in a certain way. We are basically taught to behave as each other polar opposites. I don’t think men and women understand or even know what their true natures are due to being so heavily socialized into gender roles. And of course, socialized gender roles vary from society to society.

        I just had to explain this.

        “Men would LOVE to be reduced down to our looks because then we wouldn’t have to work as hard as we do now. Why bother trying to impress women if I can either succeed or fail just based on what I look like? It’d be liberating.”

        If this so true why do men get so up in arms, when women talk about caring about their looks in the context of romantic interest.

        “Also, on the topic of women’s age. The simple reason for men wanting young women is children. The biological reason to have sex is to produce offspring. Relationships, love, pleasure, etc. are things that spring from the hearts, minds and souls of humans. But, biologically, sex is for procreation.”

        Women are well aware of our expiration dates. So, after 35 women are no longer deserving of love and relationships but men are because they can still reproduce, according to biology and the manosphere.

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        • Matt
          Dec 08, 2011 @ 19:39:26

          Liza,

          Thank you. Even though I don’t necessarily agree with a lot of what you wrote, I can understand at least why you think as you do. Two things I do want to say though.

          It strikes me as odd that if our natural gender roles are suppressed to make room for our taught gender roles, then why do those taught gender roles mirror the gender roles of our natural cousins (ie. monkeys/chimps) so closely?

          The “Boys don’t cry”, “Boys don’t show their emotions” has its roots in the fact that men used to do (we still do) the hard, high-risk work, ie. hunting, war, defense, etc. A man that succumbed to his emotions (crying, fear, etc.) during that work could put the rest of the group at risk. A certain discipline was therefore trained into boys in order so that they could be trusted in those situations. Now it hangs around because that’s what most women like. A man who is in touch with his emotions will have lots of women friends, but no romantic prospects.

          “If this so true why do men get so up in arms, when women talk about caring about their looks in the context of romantic interest.”

          I am open to being wrong, but honestly, I’ve never met a man that does. We try to look as good as we can, but I’ve yet to meet men that get “up in arms” when women talk about this. Every man I’ve ever met has reacted to that sort of talk with a shrug of the shoulders and a brief “meh”. Of course, I’ve never seen a woman deny a man she was even marginally attracted to because he wasn’t hot enough.

          “Women are well aware of our expiration dates. So, after 35 women are no longer deserving of love and relationships but men are because they can still reproduce, according to biology and the manosphere.”

          *sigh* I never said this. It has nothing to do with who deserves love and who doesn’t. (Just as an aside, it is not for men or women to decide who does and does not deserve love). A man can build a loving relationship with the majority of available women. A woman can do the same with the majority of available men. What I said is that if a man wants kids, then he will instinctively go for a younger woman to increase his chances of having one or more. The relationship and love can be built during the course of the years that follow.

          Biology is what it is. It’s why in more traditional cultures, older women taught younger women what to look for in a mate. Those older women took a very active interest in making sure that their younger daughters were married to a good man BEFORE they hit a certain age. The man would then continue to show love to his wife AFTER she past her “expiration date”. (Note: I’m talking in good situations, not in dysfunctional ones). Those women were doing everything they could to ensure that the situation many women find themselves in right now didn’t happen.

          I also need to point out that not every man has (or wants) the sort of life espoused in the “manosphere”. Most of those guys are over-correcting for a lifetime of being declined as “Just Friends” by women. Before you ask, no, I don’t blame those women. For those guys to be declined for that long, there had to be something wrong with them. However, justified or not, those guys will become bitter. Hence, the incredibly lopsided opinions that are seen so commonly in the manosphere. Also, the opinions held at sites like Jezebelle.com and Feministing.com are exactly the same about men, if not worse.

          Anyway, I’m out. Happy holidays to all if I don’t get time to come back this year. 🙂

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          • zorro
            Dec 08, 2011 @ 20:30:06

            “For those guys to be declined for that long, there had to be something wrong with them.”

            …and if you read chapters 1 & 2 of No More Mr Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover, you will have your answer. It is a huge problem for men in the Western world, particularly the U.S.

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            • Matt
              Dec 08, 2011 @ 22:29:01

              Zorro,

              I’ve read that book cover to cover more than once. I know why they were rejected. But I don’t hold women responsible for doing so anymore than I feel guilt for declining the advances of a woman that I’m not interested in.

              It is not the responsibility of women to “fix” those guys. It’s on those guys to do so.

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        • zorro
          Dec 08, 2011 @ 20:09:42

          The socially-programmed gender roles has been studied to death, and it is all feminist bullshit. Little boys and girls who have never had toy trucks or dolls have been put in a room, and the girls always pick the dolls and the boys play with the trucks. There are numerous women deer hunters where I live, and plenty of men are interested in coking. But it is because wildly more men hunt and wildly more women enjoy cooking is why we attach those gender roles to those activities: it is because people behave according to their genetically-mapped programming. You have conflated cause with effect.

          Read The Woman Racket by Steve Moxon. For god’s sake, read something other than the swill they leave in the reception room at your hair salon. Your post was a monument to confirmation bias.

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  25. Marellus
    Dec 08, 2011 @ 12:06:00

    Marellus,
    Your recollection of events made me confused as hell.
    What was your objective for this encounter?
    A. Practicing your social skills
    B. Light hearted banter with hope for more
    C. Sexual interest
    D. Relationship interest

    As I was reading it I assume B or C but at the end it left me wondering what the hell your doing.

    I was a kid that got handed a stick of dynamite, while staring at an anthill. The fact is that without Game, especially without the knowledge of shit-tests and push-pull, I’d NEVER have elicited this sexual offer out of her. Never.

    And as to why I didn’t take the next step, MK, the answer is quite simple :

    I AM STILL A BLOODY VIRGIN !!!

    You can laugh. I sure as hell am. On my 32’nd birthday my work-buddies actually hired me a prostitute (at their expense) to come and service me at work. I didn’t make use of the offer. I made her lots of tea, and we swapped names for babies. She liked the name “Shalen” as I recall.

    She also told me that she had a weakness for shoe-buying on e-Bay, and she was adamant that she was NOT going to work that night, no matter how much her boss begged her. She wanted to party.

    And why am I still a virgin you may ask ?! I’d ascribe it to the vestiges of an over-commitment in Christian Fundamentalism, and yes, a fatal one-itis. She was a Christian Fundamentalist as well.

    After she dropped me, there was a time that I just didn’t care how I interacted with women. I flirted outrageously with them. I didn’t care how they responded. This to such an extent, that one of them looked me point blank in the face, and said that I am dangerous.

    I couldn’t understand why, but after I read some Game Literature, I did. If there is one contribution that I can make to Game, it is this :

    A man is never as dangerous to a woman as when he is saying the sweetest of endearments to her, with a cynicism that broadcasts no sexual interest. And that’s because the woman that was protecting her pussy, will discover too late that it’s her heart that was vulnerable …

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    • MK
      Dec 08, 2011 @ 19:37:32

      I admire your openness. I had a strict Catholic upbringing and that kept me in check for quite awhile but I have been raging against the system for quite some time now,

      Not sure what to tell you once you know game its a choice of what you want to do and its on you I don’t judge anyone or decide what is right for them. Do your thing and decide whats right for you. Opening or escalating is the toughest part depending on the man doing the interaction. I know there were quite a few times in my past that I look back in horror now because hot chicks were throwing themselves at me and I didn’t close it out. Live, learn, grow.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 09, 2011 @ 00:01:49

      Awww Marellus that is so brave of you to admit. You’ll find your Queen one day to share your first experience with and hopefully she will be the one and it will be special 😀 i can imagine though as a male that must be tough and now I understand that whole senario and why you didn’t pursue. Do you think you were afraid you couldn’t please her even though you admitted to finding her to be the most attractive woman you’ve seen? Do you find yourself flirting with women and then when it comes time to level you may scare of the fact that you are still a virgin and she may judge you for that?

      I’m interested to know if you have ever wanted to escalate in these instances but didn’t out of not really wanting to deal with the whole virgin thing?

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      • Marellus
        Dec 09, 2011 @ 13:12:30

        MK,

        I’ll either have one woman for life … or many … and I would prefer to have one woman for life … which means I am going to have many … I don’t like it …

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        • MK
          Dec 09, 2011 @ 16:29:27

          My advice for you is one of these:
          1. Register on a faith based dating site like christiancafe (or others) where you will at least have some screening that religious background is somewhat important for them. Find a woman that suits you there or at least give it a shot.

          OR

          2. Get laid by the end of the year. Just do it no excuses don’t think, be safe sex wise, have fun and dive in.

          Don’t long for the woman that broke your heart. That part of your life is dead and gone. Learn from it, use it, move onward and upward to the place you want to be. Build a life plan and make it happen.

          best of luck

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      • Marellus
        Dec 09, 2011 @ 14:43:25

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        • Neecy
          Dec 09, 2011 @ 16:47:03

          OMG that was soooo depressing Marellus! Don’t be so down on yourself! You’re s great funny guy who will in due time find your Princess. I don’t like my Marellus being down in the dumps. Bring some of that witty humor you’ve caged up today!!!

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  26. n/a
    Dec 08, 2011 @ 12:49:55

    Yes, Zorro, you would *pay* for this knowledge, and you might find the cost is too high. The price of understanding the truth about anything is removal from a fool’s paradise, and, since this blog is more Eve than Adam, I feel it’s time to slither down the tree and answer Neecy, even though she blushes at the mildest innuendo. Like any woman, her curiosity is immense and commanding, and I am happy to indulge it.

    I said, and not only as a tease, that there is a special way to get to know the minds of women really well. It’s true; there is such a way – but like all such expeditions into the interior, you have to be prepared to encounter nasty things along the way.

    Most men are entirely ignorant about the sexuality of women. I don’t mean the trivia of physical mechanics; although they know little enough about that either, and that makes their journey into women very short and unsatisfying. Like the view of the dark jungle from the bright and simple beach. You need something sharp to cut away those first thick branches. You need to cut away everything except lust and pleasure.

    Are you comfortable with obscenity and depravity? You better be if you want to ring a woman’s bell. The special way to get to know the mind of women is to provoke their insatiably greedy instinct for novelty, excitement and pleasure. Women hate nothing more than boredom and love nothing better than excitement. And most women will never discover just how hungry they are for these things, because they need a wily man, a real snake, who will very patiently wrap all the way around them, and squeeze.

    Women love a story that builds and builds and becomes almost unbearably tense. During sex, when you fuck, you must talk to them. About what? About evil things…about what is obscene, disgusting, forbidden and outrageous. But women are the gentle sex, what possible interest could they have in these horrible depravities? I am offended that you believe something so monstrous and absurd! You must be crazy.

    Like a fox. Because now we’re in the hen-house or better, the pigpen, and here’s what happens there: when a woman is coming like a pig, over and over again, wild-eyed and flushed and drugged, then you swoop down into the depths of her mind and her cunt, which become the same thing, and you whisper to her the most foul and unbelievable scenarios of lust unleashed. And her response will tell you all you need to know.

    It’s that simple. 😉

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    • Neecy
      Dec 08, 2011 @ 23:23:42

      WOWZERS. Alrighty then. Oh my. M’kay.

      😯 😳 (why do I always seem to find myself making those faces after reading your posts N/A? LOL)

      Ok so you are saying that women are vulnerable while orgasiming? I thought everyone was.

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  27. bob
    Dec 08, 2011 @ 12:55:47

    Neecy said:

    Boy you sure know how to start some controversy – so now we’re going to have a big ole war about MARRAIGE? LOL

    Hmmmm. I seem to be good at stirring up hornet’s nests without even trying.

    Anyhow, I found you by reading the IR blogs and Chateau Heartiste. The writing of the female IR bloggers, with the emphasis on Quality relationships, was in a way, inspiring.

    (I read a lot of stuff on the the internet, and I follow a lot of links, so at any time, I may be reading a diverse, if not absolutely strange, mix of stuff.)

    Somewhere in the mix, something pointed me towards the MRA (Men’s Rights Advocates) sites (see the Spearhead, A Voice For Men, Wedded Abyss).

    Somewhere else I was also introduced to the MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) blogs and forums.

    (I’m not linking because sometimes including even one hyperlink seems to send my posts to the bit bucket. WordPress is weird that way.)

    Reading these sites can only be very discouraging to a man thinking of marriage, or even a serious relationship.

    ——————————————-

    Mark Slater said:

    You people *still* aren’t getting it. …
    Eventually, we all fall in love. It may not be with someone who fits our “100-point checklist” and it will certainly be with an imperfect and flawed individual….Without love and romance (does that even exist anymore), we are all just a number in the Sexual Market Place with a pre-set Sexual Martket Value, not much better than evaluating a used car.

    [Emphasis added.]

    This is important stuff. And it doesn’t need to be “settling”. How many really good looking people of either are also smart, dedicated, virtuous and NOT JERKS and/or CRAZY? Not very goddamn many.

    Decades ago, people made these choices young. So the other person didn’t need to be “hawt”. Reasonably cute, healthy, and with common values was more than enough when people are young and (face it) hormone crazed – and if they are not making decisions only with their hormones, they can actually make good choices.

    Decades ago, (40s, 50s, earlier even) young people (high school and right after), dated differently – my parents told me about this – both genders dated multiple people, often simultaneously, which worked because few if any of them were having sex. So if a girl dated 3 different guys in one week, it did not mean she was a slut. Then folks paired off and got married – and it often worked, at least in part because the partners – especially the women – had had very few or more typically no prior sexual partners and therefore pair bonding was better. (See “Married Man Sex Life” on “Virginity And The Big Bad Wolf” for the studies.)

    Then came the 60s: sexual revolution, “feminism on steroids” as Neecy has dubbed it, people getting on the sex-carousel and it’s all screwed up – as Charles Murray once said “The 60s have a lot to answer for.”

    PS: the 25 year old version of me would have laughed at all this. Sadly, he was wrong about damn near everything of importance.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 08, 2011 @ 23:57:32

      I stoppped visitng many of the BWE IR blogs but i may start again. Many of the bloggers are very optimistic and tell every woman she can achieve any goal she sets for herself with the right tools in place. Defintiley need to read up on some stuff again.

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  28. Liza207
    Dec 08, 2011 @ 14:26:29

    Neecy, my dear friend, it has been a long hard day for me. And thanks for clarifying a few things on my behalf but I was not necessary because I am sick to death of this wary subject.

    It has always been clear to me that most men have a problem with women calling them out on their bad behavior towards them (And yes, I know women also behave badly towards men). We should all just put up and shut up. If you don’t shut up and you voice your grievances you are often seen as a man-basher for simply pointing out the negatives.

    I have always said, here at the nest that men and women are both responsible for the shit we now find ourselves in, within the current SMP on several occasions.

    I am often reluctant to engage some of the men here because they appear to have some past issues with women and not surprising since they are from the manosphere. Although, I don’t take everything said to heart because I don’t know them personally nor do they know me. However, I do get a little annoyed when they feel they have to be right. I make my point and I’m done. I don’t like belaboring because it becomes circular. I really hate debating and especially when it is with men. They want to right and have you agree with them, period. It is never an equal exchange of thoughts.

    Neecy, men who disparage marriage are not men any woman should even consider if desires being a married woman. Although, I believe a good woman can sometimes change a man’s mind. However, she should not put in too much of her time attempting to change him.

    I do believe there are a couple of guys on here that you should give some consideration.

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    • zorro
      Dec 08, 2011 @ 16:20:55

      “Neecy, men who disparage marriage are not men any woman should even consider if desires being a married woman.”

      True. If a man has no respect for the institution of marriage, he is clearly not husband material. And if you have ever read (and I know you haven’t) Taken Into Custody by Prof. Stephen Baskerville, you’ll know why men have no respect for marriage. But that wouldn’t interest you, since you seem too in love with blaming men for everything.

      I blame the legal system.

      It’s the Family Court system that we hate, and the laws that support it. If you got rid of Unilateral divorce and the presumtion of paternity, I would be delighted to be married. I’d be just like George Bailey in It’s A Wonderful Life. I’d love to have a wife to snuggle, and kids to spoil. But that ain’t gonna happen because I’ve known too many good men whose lives were destroyed in divorce court. And that’s a risk I don’t need to take.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 08, 2011 @ 23:38:46

      Neecy, men who disparage marriage are not men any woman should even consider if desires being a married woman. Although, I believe a good woman can sometimes change a man’s mind. However, she should not put in too much of her time attempting to change him.

      I agree that people have to be on the same page. I’m not going to die if I never get married or have kids. I understand its gets much much harder and possibly more difficult the longer a woman waits for anything in the SMP. But not everyone is ready to be married at 22, 27 and various reasons on why they may not have married and have kids early. but I like ot think that the guy I am possibly considering is on board with it and open to it.

      This is where people have to find those who share common interests. Like I said I understand that getting married later in life for a woman is much harder. but I am not giving up hope b/c I know plenty of women getting married around my age and some of whom have had their healthy babies. People told them to they were “expired” b/c they were over 35. Pssh. Only God has the final word on anything and I will not let or allow anyone to steal my joy or happiness or dreams for what i want based on their own prejudices etc.

      I do believe there are a couple of guys on here that you should give some consideration.

      😈

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      • zorro
        Dec 09, 2011 @ 01:28:20

        “I do believe there are some guys here you should give some consideration to.”

        Yes. Mark Slater and Marellus would be good for you, Neecy.

        I’m too old. Or you’re too young. Maybe both, but people would see us together and go, “What a disgustingly dirty old white man chasing after such young chocolate skirt!” I wouldn’t want you to have to endure that.

        But we would make a good sitcom!

        “Welcome to another episode of I MARRIED A MOOSE!, the heartwarming and hilarious tale of a 900-pound rural swamp-dwelling herbivore married to a young and vibrant urban pharmaceutical executive. Can they make it in the suburbs? Let’s watch the fun!”

        I figure we’d last at least three seasons.

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  29. bob
    Dec 08, 2011 @ 15:31:59

    So, some thoughts:

    Negging: As I understand this, it is a short-term PUA-Game tactic, to be used briefly. I’ve never seen it advocated as a long term strategy. A man who uses it that way should be avoided.

    ————————————————

    SMP: How about a Relationship Market Place (RMP)? There is no doubt that attractiveness would still matter for both genders, but actually giving a crap about what a person is might make looks something other than the be-all-end-all that everybody is talking about. (Not that it would help me, but still.)

    ————————————————–

    Some of us are talking past each other here, at least in terms of language. Are we talking about PUA-Game, or real relationships? Yes there is intersection, but often these are wholly separate – for some, intentionally so.

    ————————————————–
    Women and Age: (fertility)

    Things get harder as women age, and much harder starting at 35, for woman looking to get pregnant. Even the very fit ones.

    Recent studies indicate that older men’s sperm may also have issues, but it’s not the all or nothing thing it is with women.

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  30. Liza207
    Dec 08, 2011 @ 16:45:24

    “But that wouldn’t interest you, since you seem too in love with blaming men for everything.”

    OMG! and LOL! Neecy, these are your people. And girl, you can have them all to yourself. But dont worry, I am not going anyway.

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    • Matt
      Dec 08, 2011 @ 17:53:42

      Liza,

      “We should all just put up and shut up. If you don’t shut up and you voice your grievances you are often seen as a man-basher for simply pointing out the negatives. ”

      “I really hate debating and especially when it is with men. They want to right and have you agree with them, period. It is never an equal exchange of thoughts.”

      These two points are what I mean. I don’t think you’re a “man-basher”, but I do think you blame men for much more than is warranted. Why do you assume that all men have this need to silence women? I’m asking for an explanation not because I want you to “shut up”, but because it’s the direct opposite of what I’ve seen. If anything, I’ve seen women having a need to be right much more often than I’ve ever seen a man doing so. That said, people react the same to that type of person whether it’s a man or a woman.

      “I have always said, here at the nest that men and women are both responsible for the shit we now find ourselves in, within the current SMP on several occasions.”

      I mostly agree with this. The only difference is that I put much more of the blame on women than I do on men. Maybe a 70/30 split rather than 50/50. This isn’t because I believe men are blameless. Far from it. It’s because it hasn’t been men that have been pushing for legal and societal changes to accommodate them. It hasn’t been men that have continued to propose and lobby for ever more oppressive laws. Men have simply stood by and done nothing as said changes were made. I hold men responsible for failing to stand up to stupidity, but I hold women more responsible for collectively perpetrating said stupidity. This isn’t about having hangups with women. It’s about researching the history for why we are where we are, then assigning blame accordingly. Contrary to what you might think, I have no hangups with women. I really enjoy actual, feminine women. I can’t tolerate pushy, in-your-face, “GRRL POWER”, “all men are evil” women, the same way you can’t tolerate pushy, in-your-face, “I will worship your body” men.

      I am not trying to pick a fight with you. I am not trying to silence you. I am not trying to be right at all costs. I am genuinely interested in your point of view. What I am asking for is an explanation for why you believe the way you do. What made you think that men have a need to silence women? Why do you think that most men would skip out on child support if they weren’t legally obliged? Why do you think that men are responsible for women’s insecurities?

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    • Neecy
      Dec 08, 2011 @ 23:30:35

      I have to admit these last two essays and blog posts have not been fun. In fact I’m ready to break out some egg nog here and spike the hell out of it. its the Holidays and we’re all fighting like cats and dogs. UGH!

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  31. Neecy
    Dec 08, 2011 @ 22:26:01

    OH MAN *group hug please!*

    Is Liza the new target of the week or something? Jeez. My friend is taking quite the slack and I’m not sure why. All she is doing is expressing her opinion on a few things. Not sure why she is being accused of blaming men for everything.

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  32. Neecy
    Dec 08, 2011 @ 22:57:38

    Matt,

    Have you been reading *ANY* of my blogs posts AT ALL??? How can you with a straight face say that I and Liza blame men for women’s shortcomings? Are you willing to stick up for the women that I am OFTEN blaming for why the SMP is the way it is? No of course not. All you see is a challenge against men and suddenly Liza and I are blaming men for everything?

    How many essays, threads and posts have I come down hard on women????? How many essays, threads and posts have I literally BLAMED women for the way the SMP is and take the blame off of men by saying that men are adaptable based on how women run the SMP. IOW’s if women straightened up then so would men. That if women demanded more respect men would follow. That if women wanted to act like sluts and sleep around men will oblige?

    I didn’t see anyone here running to the defense of women saying I was blaming women for everything wrong in the SMP today! Yet when it comes time to point out what men are doing wrong there is a problem?

    I have *ALWAYS* been balanced on this blog. I have equally held both genders accountable for the issues within the SMP and in relationships between men and women. But it seems some of you guys want it to always be about women’s fault and then when it comes time to talk about the man’s shortcomings in all of this, then we’re “blaming men for everything”?

    Neither Liza and I are randomly *BLAMING* men for women’s “shortcomings”. We are pointing out the reality that men will, have and do use different tactics to “keep women in their place” and they use the common tool of making women feel insecure about things out of her control – LOOKS and AGE.
    ——————————————————————————————————————————–
    RE NEGS:
    You and I both know that these men that post on PUA blogs and who are out in the “field” using Negs are not using “NEGS” as playful banter and flirting. These are angry bitter men who will and do use negs to make women feel insecure b/c that is the only way they feel they can get a woman is by forcing her to question herself. A man does NOT have to or need to even NEG a woman if his game is tight. I don’t have an issue with negs and I have stated MANY TIMES ON HERE that Negs are fine if it’s in a man’s natural tendency to joke and bust people’s chops (both men and women).

    If this is a man’s natural state of course his “negging” is coming more from a standpoint of he’s just a playful joker and not some loser who is looking to gain footing by making a woman question herself. There is a difference and in many of these cases you and I BOTH know most men do not know how to neg properly and have no good intentions when doing it. Take a visit to the Neg thread on heartiste’s and you can clearly see the type of Negging you are talking about is not what is being used on women for the purposes YOU claim.
    ————————————————————————————-
    RE: Women and children past 35 not being able to have healthy kids
    Oh I love this MEME men love to throw out. Yet I notice men never discuss the recent studies that show older men ALSO risk having unhealthy kids. Never is that discussed either. Lemme just say this BOTH MEN AND WOMEN HAVE EXPIRATION DATES AND RUN THE RISK OF HAVING UNHEALTHY CHILDREN THE OLDER THEY GET!

    So for all the old guys who desire being with women half their age, and accuse women over 30 of being “too risky” for having healthy kids, you also better inform your young girls/wives and future babymommas about the risks involved in having children with a man much older. I’m too tired to dig up the studies but would be more than happy to provide them tommorow – or hell do a google search if you don’t agree or believe it. This is something MEN seem to not want to admit or acknowledge – they TOO have an expiration date!

    True a woman’s risk of having unhealthy babies increases AFTER FORTY YEARS OF AGE but there are way too many women these days who are doing just fine. My ex stepmother being one who had two healthy bouncing tall athletic handsome sons from my father when they were BOTH in their 40’s. Not to mention the slew of g/f’s baby showers I have attended and seen their young healthy babies they have had after 35. So while it may be a risk increase its certainly not impossible or improbable for a woman in her 30’s to have a healthy child.
    I do understand the biological reasons why a woman should have children earlier than later in life, but men also need to know that their risks of having unhealthy kids also increases as they age and STUDIES HAVE PROVEN THIS.

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    • Matt
      Dec 09, 2011 @ 00:44:18

      Neecy,

      I took exception to:

      “This is way negs are so affective on women it plays on our insecurities with our looks–an insecurity that men have created by telling that is all we are worth. ”

      Specifically, the part after the hyphen. I was asking her to explain WHY men are responsible for women’s insecurity about their looks. Using a ‘neg’ as an example is wrong because a neg would not work if that insecurity wasn’t already there.

      I have noticed a trend in some of Liza’s posts that leans towards blaming the man at all times, or at the very least, assuming that all men are somehow nasty. There was the comment about how men use a neg in order to see if a woman can be easily dominated/controlled. Another about how men would never pay any sort of child support, or take care of his kids, if the law wasn’t there to force it out of him. Hell, at one point it was stated that the only reason for a woman nagging/bitching at her husband was because he wasn’t fulfilling his “manly duties” (I’m really curious about what those duties are). Every single one of those posts was written in such a way as to show the man being an asshole. If these points are going to be stated, then refuting them or requesting some clarification on the reasoning behind them isn’t to much to ask. I certainly don’t see how it’s a personal attack.

      “keep women in their place”
      *sigh* Really? You seriously believe that men go to lengths to “keep women in their place”? Tabernac, have you read any of what I’ve said? I’m going to go over this again. Well-adjusted MEN do NOT want to have to “keep women in their place”. It means that we can’t trust her. If a man is seeking to “keep women in their place”, he isn’t a man that any woman should want around.

      I’m gong to say this as bluntly as I possibly can. Every single male I have ever met, from the biggest douchebag to the noblest gentleman, all of them, actually believe women to be their EQUALS. They do NOT in any way, shape or form think that women should be kept in their place. They WANT women to engage them AS EQUALS. Are there men who do want to keep women “in their place”? Sure. But I have a hard time believing it’s anywhere near as common as you are suggesting.

      —-

      Re: Negging

      There is a good reason why I do not frequent Heartiste’s site anymore. I originally read his stuff because it was a curiosity. The more I read of it, the more I decided it was a den of assholes and simply not worth the time.

      You will get no argument from me on anything you wrote about a neg. That said, the ORIGINAL intent of a neg is what I wrote above. It doesn’t create insecurity, it uses existing insecurities to reframe an interaction. ‘Negs’ don’t work if those insecurities aren’t already there. Men are guilty of using those insecurities to their advantage, but not of causing them.

      —-

      Re: Over 35

      I have only ever seen one study that came to those conclusions and it used a sample size of 97 men, aged 22 – 80. Yes, statistically that might be enough for a good study, but I’m still waiting for corroborating studies to reach the same conclusions with a larger sample size. Not only that, but the study only said “increased risk”, it didn’t spell out what the risk factor increased by.

      This isn’t a simple case of “See, men have an expiration date too”. The big difference is that for women, the fertility issue is a hard stop whereas for men it’s a decline. Women have a date for when getting pregnant gets harder. Men don’t. The risk of an 80 year old man’s sperm producing a child with a genetic defect does go up, but he can still have a kid. An 80 year old woman can’t without some rather invasive and new medical technology.

      That said, the problem with quoting studies in this topic is that it’s irrelevant. Yes, science shows that men’s fertility drops after the ages of 40 to 50. Yes, that’s true. But it doesn’t matter. Why? The simple fact is that young women seem to have less of a problem dating older men than the reverse. Nature has wired men to chase young women because, for better or worse, young women have a better chance of having healthy kids naturally. This doesn’t matter as much now that modern medicine can intervene, but natural instinct doesn’t even acknowledge medicine, let alone care about it. Natural instinct won’t be changed simply because it is now within our abilities to correct for nature’s shortcomings.

      This is, and always will be, an academic discussion. Nature doesn’t care about the statistical risks of a man’s sperm. Naturally speaking, a man can father children at any age after he has reached sexual maturity. (Nature has a heartless way to “correct” any genetic defects caused by said man’s older sperm). A woman can’t. The younger a woman is, the more likely she is to produce healthy kids. That’s where nature decided to make the “biggest likelihood the child is healthy” decision. Those are what men’s instincts are following when he seeks to have sex. All the studies, logic, medicine and statistics in the world won’t change what men’s instincts have directed.

      I’ve got to point out, again, that this only applies to men who are not devoting themselves to overriding their base instincts. Men should seek to move away from the “Always chasing younger models” behaviour. It’s destructive to civilization in general and to women that thought they were loved by those men. Natural instincts should be controlled, not reveled in. If a man has lots and lots of “friends” in the younger crowd, he’s probably not the type of guy you’d want around.

      —-

      I’m doing my utmost to not be an unempathic ass. The point I responded to, as I understood it was, why do men chase younger women? From a pure biology perspective, that’s why. From a more human perspective, because losers have an easier time tricking younger women into bed. Either way, it isn’t pretty.

      That said, I’m going to bed. It’s pushing 3:30am here.

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      • Neecy
        Dec 09, 2011 @ 01:35:17

        Matt I want to address the male sperm thing. Of course not many studies have been researched on mens “biological clock” I wonder why? there has been an obvious attempt at brushing under the rug the biological clock of men, their sperm and the risks involved with children and birth defects with men having kids after a certain age. While the male may not stop producing sperm even in elder years, that doesn’t mean his sperm is healthy enough to produce a healthy child like a man in his 30’s or below.

        Also as men age their ability to even hold an erection naturally declines as well as the amount of the sperm they are able to release – and they have to rely on medication to help them even get it up (I sold erectly dysfunction meds so i know). There are so many things that lend to men having a biological clock its not even funny. but the focus is ALWAYS on women’s biological clock and why men “HAVE TO CHASE YOUNGER WOMEN” b/c “those over 30 women” are expired and worthless as women (i.e. they can’t have healthy kids) (BULLCRAP) and younger women can have healtheir kids so us old men just have to go after younger women. LOL I call BS on that!

        Do men ever want to admit that with age comes their INABILITY to have a natural erection without the help of MEDICATION? If you can’t even get it up then how can you brag about being with a younger woman b/c she can have “healthier kids” yet you can barely even get your penis erect to make a baby!

        Like I said I call BS Not on the part that younger women have a lower risk of thier kids having birth defects and that its not ideal for a woman to have kids earlier than later. But I call BULLSHIT that men have a desire to chase younger women b/c they have healthier kids. LOL that is such a crock! That is the same old tired excuse men have been giving for decades! The reason a man much older would chase a younger woman is not cause he wants healthy kids!

        He had plenty of time to meet a woman his own age in his and her prime to have healthy kids if he wanted. the fact that an older man looks to a woman damn near half his age for kids says not that he wants healthy kids but that he did NOT WANT TO DATE or be with a woman his own age at any time b/c his PREFERENCE was solely for younger women. PERIOD END OF STORY. older women and their “biological clocks” have NADA to do with his DECISION to chase and pursue younger women!

        Just own up to the fact that certain groups of men are more obsessed with youth and place a higher value on it than others and therefore seek to admonish women past a certain age b/c of these men’s own prejudices and PREFERENCES for younger women.

        As i have said before i have NO PROBLEM with a man that admits to liking or preferring younger women b/c that is what he likes. However, i have a problem when they use the “downfalls” of women past a certain age as to why they prefer younger women. It’s so played out already and women over 30 are not buying that BS anymore. men need to stop blaming women over 30 for the reasons they do things. If you like and prefer younger women just say it and stop pushing the blame on women over 30’s “inability” to have healthy kids as the EXCUSE. Its such a cop out and such BS!

        It reminds me of the Black men who date interracially and blame Black women for why they “JUST HAD TO GET A WHITE WOMAN”. LOL. NO. Men make choices based on what they WANT. Black women nor women over 30 have ANYTHING to do with a man’s choice to date and pursue younger women or a woman of another race AT ALL. That is just a cop out men use when they can’t be man enough to own up to their preferences.

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        • Neecy
          Dec 09, 2011 @ 01:36:49

          Here are some facts a woman listed about the male biological clock and I will email her to see where she got these facts from b/c i am also curious as to the study.

          http://www.interracialdatingcoach.com/2011/01/should-women-also-be-concerned-about.html
          The long held status quo has been that men can have children at any age. Men often take for granted the fact that they can produce sperm for their entire lives. There is no timeframe after which men are unable produce sperm in the same way that women go through menopause. Many men assume that because they make sperm all of their lives that they have the same ability to conceive healthy children at 50+ as they were able to do in their 20s and 30s- as long as they choose a woman half their age, right?

          Not so much. Science is mounting that that is in fact NOT the case.

          Much has been made of the female biological clock; however, little is known about the male biological clock. Basic knowledge of age related changes in men’s sperm goes back nearly 60 years, however society chooses to brush this fact under the rug. Here are some things to consider:

          —The cells that create a man’s sperm divide roughly once every 16 days. By the time a man is 50, that division has occurred more than 800 times. Those cells determine the genetic code that will be in the sperm- and every time they divide, there’s a chance that the genetic code will be altered. With every alteration comes a greater chance of genetic deterioration that could open the door to birth defects; therefore, as men age, the percentage of damaged sperm they carry in their testes tends to increase.

          —It takes only 24 cell divisions in a woman’s body to produce her lifetime supply of eggs, and those divisions occur before the woman is even born. That may provide more genetic stability for eggs than for sperm.

          —Age can make it harder for men to produce quality sperm that’s able to conceive a child. The risk of birth defects also increases with the age of the father. For example, men over 40 are more likely to father an autistic child than men under 30. Schizophrenia may also be more prevalent in children fathered by older men. Increased rates of some cancers are also more common in children of older fathers.

          —Semen samples of men over 45 showed impairment to sperm in three categories: their motility, vitality, and DNA integrity. New research has shown that men older than 45 have twice as much damage to their sperm as men under 30.

          —With age a man’s body can produce less testosterone. And that in turn can reduce sperm count and the quality of sperm available- including its ability to trigger a pregnancy.
          Sexual performance in men- the act that leads to conception- can also decline with age.
          Geneticists have been aware for decades that the risk of certain rare birth defects increases with the father’s age: achondroplasia (dwarfism), neurofibromatosis, Marfan syndrome, Apert syndrome, etc.
          Dr. Fisch, author of the book The Male Biological Clock found that older fathers added to the risk of having a baby with Down syndrome if the mother was over 35. He concluded that the father’s age was a contributing factor in 50% of Down syndrome cases in babies born to women over 40.

          —-A report released in PLoS Medicine establishes a link between reduced intelligence and children who were fathered by older men. An Israeli study also found a correlation between having an older father and lower scores on nonverbal, or performance, I.Q. tests.

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          • Liza207
            Dec 09, 2011 @ 07:07:05

            Neecy,

            I remember reading this when she first published it. There are older women who marrying/dating younger men so that they will have a better chance at conceiving.

            Think: Mariah Carey and Nick Canon and some others.

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        • Liza207
          Dec 09, 2011 @ 07:02:35

          Neecy,

          Once again, you knocked it out of the park. I guess they will take it better coming from you. This coming from me would ignite more accusations of blaming men for everything and being a feminist. LOL! They just love dishing it out but have a really hard time taking it.

          I know when I am older, I will continue to prefer young men even when they no longer want me. Why? They look amazing (when they do) and have d****s of steel.

          I won’t feel the need to make bullshit excuses and disparage older men that I am even interested in to begin with.

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          • Neecy
            Dec 09, 2011 @ 07:58:24

            and have d****s of steel.

            OMG that made me laugh really hard! You crack me up!

            But you are so right. people just need to own up to their own PREFERENCES and stop disparaging others as to why they go after others. Its beyond ridiculous! Just say you like younger women and leave it at that – as if women over 30 were said to have healthier kids that men would suddenly not chase after younger women. Psssh!

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            • Liza207
              Dec 09, 2011 @ 08:18:16

              I believe that older men often make ridiculous statements (i.e. younger produce healthy offspring) because they often are shamed for preferring younger women over older women their own age. I often hear older women constantly putting down older for their preference in young women. While women will be ready to high-five older women for snagging a much younger man. I see it all the time. As a woman, I can understand it, especially in cases where the older husband dumps his older wife to take up with a younger woman. However, at the same time, I believe that people should mind their own business and go find their bliss, instead of dwelling on other individuals’ choices.

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              • Neecy
                Dec 09, 2011 @ 08:31:40

                Good point Liza. I have to agree with this that its most likely a case of men trying to avoid being brow beaten by older women who put them down for liking younger women. i guess the same would apply to Black men in IR’s b/c there are lunatic Black women that give them a hard time for their choices, yet as you said would high five another Black women for the same thing.

                But men should not or anyone for that matter have to apologize for what it is they like. Its their life and no one else’s and you are right people need to mind their damn business.

                Nothing irks me more than people who have issues with other people’s individual choices!

                But I still say that disparaging older women is not the route. Men need to just be men and say what they like and to hell with the shameful tactics some women use. Of course it causes an older woman to defend herself and it makes her look like she has a prob with younger women and older men which is not the case.

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          • Matt
            Dec 09, 2011 @ 11:07:48

            Liza,

            I can take as well as I can give. I do not make accusations lightly and I don’t think you blame men for everything (it was a poor choice of words on my part). Some of your comments give me the impression that you have some hostility towards men, but I don’t believe you’re a Feminist. However, given that this is the Internet, it also makes little difference what I think about you or what you think about me.

            That said, the reason I engage Neecy differently than I do you is because Neecy will justify her positions. It has nothing to do with “I’ll take it from Neecy but not you” or any other such nonsense. If I disagree with Neecy, then I post why with as much reasoning as I can give. If she disagrees with me, she posts why with her reasoning. She will cite her sources. She’s done so multiple times. I’ve seen you do so once and only when pushed.

            I read your comments with the same curiosity that I read hers. But when something sounds odd, then I’m going to want some clarification on what lead you to think the way you do. It’s not a personal attack and was certainly not intended to cause the shitstorm that it did.

            With that, I’m not going to bring this up again. It’s not worth it.

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            • Liza207
              Dec 09, 2011 @ 11:36:30

              Matt,

              I love how you are able to stand your ground without resorting to personal attacks. That is definitely a sign of maturity and self-restraint–very attractive qualities.

              And yes, this convo is becoming rather circular. We should just agree to disagree at this point.

              Happy Holidays!

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              • MK
                Dec 09, 2011 @ 16:24:49

                I think you both had a reasonable debate and viewed it as civil on both sides.
                Not sure why there was any stress at all thats what Internet sites are all about when they are working well so glad you feel better about it now.

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        • Matt
          Dec 09, 2011 @ 10:42:41

          Neecy,

          “Of course not many studies have been researched on mens “biological clock” I wonder why?”

          You’re implying here that men don’t do those studies because they won’t like the outcome? I could respond by saying that these studies are only being done now in order to soothe the egos of those women that want male and female to be exactly the same. Sort of a scientifically backed “SEE!!!!! YOU HAVE A BEST BEFORE DATE TOO!!!!!”. It can cut both ways.

          “Just own up to the fact that certain groups of men are more obsessed with youth and place a higher value on it than others and therefore seek to admonish women past a certain age b/c of these men’s own prejudices and PREFERENCES for younger women.”

          No, I won’t own up to that fact because I dispute that it’s correct.

          There are those types of men. Those are the guys that, as I said, revel in their more base urges and see nothing wrong with gorging themselves on sex. They are not guys you want to try to build a life with and as such, should be irrelevant to you anyway.

          The reason I disagree with you on this topic is that these urges are found, to some degree, in EVERY heterosexual man. All of us. Those of us that work on ourselves will overcome them, those of us who don’t will seek to slake those urges wherever and whenever possible.

          There are two possible explanations for this UNIVERSAL behaviour. Mine states that it’s natural instinct at work. Yours states that we all share the same preferences. Occam’s Razor states that, all things being equal, the simplest solution is probably the correct one. From where I stand, the simplest solution is the instinctual one since instinct is shared by all humans whereas preferences are a matter of choice and change based on a number of different variables (location, culture, mood, etc).

          Is it right that instinct works like this? Scientifically, no. Does that matter? Not in the least. Humans have operated like this since the dawn of recorded history. A few scientific studies showing that men share a “Best Before” date are not going to change that. It’s like bailing the Titanic with a bucket.

          Also, do the over 80 year old men consider kids when going to bed with a 22 year old woman? Nope. They aren’t going to bed with those women in order to have kids. But, the drive that got them there still works the same.

          “why men “HAVE TO CHASE YOUNGER WOMEN” b/c “those over 30 women” are expired and worthless as women”

          How exactly do you make the jump from “younger women are more likely to have healthy babies” to “over 30 women are expired and worthless as women”? I never said this. I never even approached it. This is disgustingly cruel and I question why you would even think it.

          I am not, in any way, shape or form, stating that over 30 women CAN’T have kids. I am saying, from a completely NATURAL point of view, the younger a woman is, the more likely she’ll have a healthy kid. After reading the studies you wrote, I’ll accept that the same holds true for men. This isn’t being disputed. This is how NATURE set things up. It isn’t as true anymore because modern medicine can (and should) intervene to resolve any difficulties that might arise. But that has absolutely no bearing on how instinctual drives work.

          You can quote study after study after study ad nauseum and it won’t matter. Instinct works a specific way. It doesn’t care about scientific progress. It isn’t moved by medical advancements. It won’t be changed by politics. It can’t be modified because we would prefer it worked differently. It just is.

          Natural instinct is present in every single one of us. For men, it directs us to chase younger women. For women, it seems to push them to chase the “Alpha” men. Or ….. assholes. The good thing about being sentient is that all of us can override our instincts. If a woman works at it, she can love a man that isn’t the “Alpha”. The same way that men can curb the natural impulse to chase young women.

          So why don’t more people do that? It takes work. A lot of it. Those drives are among the strongest that people have. A woman that succeeded in conquering that impulse will select a man that she loves and that will treat her properly while also rejecting macho, ALPHA idiots. There are some opinions that for men, the fight to curb that impulse never ends.

          I am sorry but I really don’t understand this animosity towards something that has held true for quite literally thousands of years. I also don’t understand this insistence that it’s a preference. Preferences change. You know in ancient cultures, obese women were preferred over thin ones? Why? Because it showed that she was healthy since most diseases they knew about back then tended to make a person thinner over time. On the other side, women used to prefer pasty white men because having a tan meant he had to work outside all day. Neither of these preferences really exist anymore. Obesity is something that most people are against, and having a tan is now so desirable that people bake themselves on flat beds to get one. So preferences change. But a man’s desire for younger women has endured. That alone would make me question whether this is a preference or not.

          If I had to give advice, to you, Liza or any other lady, it would be this: If a guy is consistently checking out young women, he’s not worth the time. He obviously isn’t fighting the Good Fight to curb what his instincts want. There are men out there that are going to be consistently fighting that part of themselves and will chose a lady based on love. Those guys will be worth the effort. Find one of them and be happy.

          I’m going to bow out of this conversation now. This is going to go around and around without ever getting anywhere. I respectfully disagree with your point of view and will leave it at that.

          *tips Fedora*

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          • Neecy
            Dec 09, 2011 @ 11:32:12

            Matt its all good we sorely disagree on this and that’s ok 😎 We’ll completely agree to diagree on this issue.

            But since you are disgareeing with me (and I am ALWAYS RIGHT) 👿 you now owe me that long post on what marriage should be 😉

            Oh and off topic but try flip flopping you username and email to see if it will stop sending you to moderation. i htink that is why your comments always go to moderation. you may be putting username and email on the wrong lines.

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            • Liza207
              Dec 09, 2011 @ 11:44:05

              I think I see a guest post coming from, Matt. What do you think?

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              • Neecy
                Dec 09, 2011 @ 11:53:06

                he made mention of it and now I’m gonna bug thee living hell outta him to write it. I’ll give him until after the holidays and if he doesn’t he’s going to get that pink bubble gum avatar that he “loooooves” so much! 😈

                Pink Bubble Gum “THWAP” man is just a simple click away MATT! Now I am not threatening you, just letting you know the dealy in case that has to happen….

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              • Firepower
                Dec 09, 2011 @ 12:24:06

                your latest av is more appropriate; i always thought you were really, a boyish male

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                • Liza207
                  Dec 09, 2011 @ 12:35:58

                  I would like to think of him as the male version of myself. Just kidding…Not really.

                  And don’t think that I don’t know that you are still baiting me. 😀

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  33. Neecy
    Dec 09, 2011 @ 00:13:20

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  34. omerta327
    Dec 09, 2011 @ 07:28:31

    Alright, kids, it’s Friday. Time for a DRUM SOLO!!!

    ..in HEELS, no less!

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  35. n/a
    Dec 09, 2011 @ 12:25:25

    It’s good that there was a little grit in the thread: I like that.

    And Neecy. You pretend to blush real easy, but I have the very definite feeling that you’ve done all sorts of truly blushworthy things — maybe just not lately.

    What makes you so endlessly (best adjective for you) sexy is your deep and obvious femininity — a man can’t hep but respond to it.

    And your good-girl horniness. That’s pretty sweet too. 🙂

    Back to my usual haunts.

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