Let’s try this again…….

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Ok. Yall. I had to temporarily close the comments on the Res. Pol. Post before it got even more off track than it was going. Some commenters were waaaaay too jumpy and ran off with all kinds of assumptions and getting completely off track of what the post was about and what I was saying. Others got the jist of what I was saying.

Its ok. I get it. I aint the best writer. And because of that I am willing to take the blame for not making my points much more CLEARLY. And I am not always as concise as I would love to be. As a result, my posts can be long winded with a BUNCH of different points, thoughts and concepts jumbled into the body. The result of that is I make a lot of points here and there that are not fully explained or expanded upon, and then people take one idea or thought, and draw their own conclusions about what I am saying or even what the basis of the post is about. Moving forward I will try to keep it to ONE concept as to not cause any confusion.

I have no issues with debating or people disagreeing with me AT ALL as long as they know what they are disagreeing with. If they don’t even understand clearly what I am saying, we cannot have an honest debate based on FACTS.

Instead of me continuing to run behind those who Didn’t GET IT, and repeating myself, I have decided to point out the FACTS of what I was saying in the post and what the post was about. I want everyone to be on the same page so we can actually have a conversation about the REALITY of what I was saying and not the mis-interpreted or misconstrued assumptions of what I was saying.

If I could sum up the post meaning in a sentence it would be “DAMNED IF YOU DO AND DAMNED IF YOU DON’T”. If you can understand that concept, then my post becomes much clearer.

  • The Respectability Politics post is NOT about the Black women who are representing themselves negatively to the masses and tarnishing the image of Black women collectively – per se.

It’s mainly about the Black women WHO ARE NOT representative of the negative stereotypes NO LONGER feeling as if they have to play respectability politics when they have never even been a representation of the negative stereotype to begin with (I.e. “going the extra mile” jumping through hoops, turning yourself into a pretzel to prove yourself to people when you are already doing and being the best person you can be.)

It’s about recognizing you do not need to carry the burden of your other sisters who can’t act right because YOU cannot change them just as you cannot change those who already have you pegged as a stereotype.

  • Sometimes it’s simply a case of “DAMNED if you do and DAMNED if you don’t”. That when you are NOT representative of the stereotypes that makes some people comfortable, they will even target you for that. Putting you in a damned if you do and damned if you don’t situation. If you are already in that kind of situation and you are being the best person you can be, the best bet is to simply continue to just DO YOU and stop worrying about trying to appease others who do not care about your individuality because it’s FUTILE.

 

  • If a Black woman (WHO IS ALREADY BEING THE BEST PERSON SHE CAN BE) has to jump through hoops and go the extra mile to prove herself to anyone, she is already losing. If someone respects you as a PERSON, they will draw and base judgments on you based on your own actions and not the actions of your race and gender. PERIOD. If they cannot or are unwilling to do that, then it’s NOT YOUR PROBLEM to try to make them reasonable, well-adjusted non-narrow focused human beings. It’s THEIR PROBLEM.

 

  • The RP was NOT about asking, begging or expecting NON Black women or ANYONE to be “FAIR” to BW. I’m no dummy. Clearly if people wanted to be fair to BW, I wouldn’t be running this blog, this post would not exist, there would be no BWE sites, and BW would be happier than pigs in poop with our position in society.

 

  • The point in me bringing up others UNWILLINGNESS to let Black women simply be individuals is FOR A REASON. And that REASON is that it benefits them and not Black women – THUS why they continue to do it! THAT’S IT. Nothing more and nothing less. I am not expecting, asking for them to be fair. I am POINTING out the REASONS they won’t do it.

 

  • If a BW doesn’t understand the battle she will never win the war. Ignoring why BW’s images in society are so marginalized and WHO is behind such and WHY its behooves them to keep you in your place, is like going into a gun fight with a butter knife. I am not asking or expecting people to “be fair” and hand us their privilege on a platter. I am simply making BW AWARE of why things are the way they are and how to recognize it and which way she needs to go once she understands it.

 

  • The RP post is NOT about focusing on changing the BW who are representing themselves negatively. Every race has its share of individuals that make people cringe. My SUGGESTION was that BW who are tired of the negative stereotypes work at uplifting, promoting and creating outlets that we build and formulate to BALANCE out the negativity.
  • Negative acting BW will always exist just as negative acting people of other races and genders will continue to exist. All anyone can do is try to balance the negative with positive. That’s it. That is my point.
  • BW are EXPECTED to take the burden of the undesirables. And my point is – do not feel the need to do that any longer because ITS NOT YOU who is the problem or even the bad apples (per se). It’s the people who EXPECT BW to prove themselves at every opportunity that they are “not like the rest”. If you are a Black woman that is ALREADY BEING THE BEST PERSON YOU CAN BE, and that is obvious by your behaviors and they won’t acknowledge that, then OH WELL. NOT your problem.

 

  • In a perfect world, all BW would act right and accordingly. In a perfect world, we would have a magic wand to change the things we wanted. We do not live in a perfect world. We are only capable of changing ourselves, our thoughts and actions. THUS I am telling BW who are ALREADY LIVING WELL AND BEING THE BEST PERSON THEY CAN BE to stop focusing on those who you cannot change and just keep being the best person you can be.

 

  • I CLEARLY stated on more than one occasion in the post, that BW who are not representative of the negative stereotypes NEED to work to balance these images out BY USING THE SAME TACTICS THAT the stereotypical BW have been using along with their “allies” who have helped them tarnish the collective image of BW.

 

  • NO WHERE did I say or correlate RP to BW not being that way naturally. Some people made comments stating that they do not need to play RP because they were raised to be well adjusted, and act in a respectful manner. GREAT. That is EXACTLY what I SAID. That BW who are ALREADY LIVING AND DOING WELL, should not have to feel they need to play RP game to make up for the actions of negative acting BW. To continue to BE THEMSLEVES and continue to be the best they can be and anyone who doesn’t acknowledge that – OH WELL not your problem.

 

  • The RP was NOT about interracial relationships.

 

  • The RP WAS about pointing out that there are people who are UNCOMFORTABLE with well-adjusted non-stereotypical BW and they will lash out at you in ways that are supposed to “remind” you of your “place” in their eyes.

 

  • The RP WAS about, no longer focusing on those who you cannot change (negative acting BW) and taking that energy and effort and putting it into formulating a NEW CULTURE of BW who represent the positive and uplifting images of womanhood that we desire. I did not ask, say or suggest that WW or anyone else should do this for us.

 

Finally, TUCILLA (who BTW has never posted before) summed up the whole point of my post beautifully:

 

After reading this and other sources, I think, while well intentioned, RP wouldn’t work simply because people have to want to change; and no matter how much one tries to uplift those who are broken it’s their journey to take alone. I see merit in wanting a community to do better; but it shouldn’t rest on your shoulders. The conclusion I got from your article is that instead of fixing the damaged; focus on showcasing and uplifting the Progressive Black Woman.

 

 

Thank You Tullica!

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134 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. Neecy
    Dec 06, 2014 @ 03:41:40

    You know. i have a question. Are Black women the ONLY evolved people on this planet?

    I ask that because the way some BW go on about how others (like in the dating arena) base their judgements on us, by the actions of our undesirable acting sisters, and why we have to “go the extra mile” (when we are already being the best person we can be) to show them we are “worthy”, makes me ask this question:

    There is not a BW on earth that cannot point to a great number of RACIST White and Non Black men in the world and how these racist Non BM have used their power at the expense of Black people.

    With all the police brutality cases and scores of obvious racist WM in the world both present day and in histroy, SOMEHOW, pro IR BW are able to overlook that and seek out the Non Bm INDIVIDUALS who do not fit the profiles of thier undesirable racist WM counterparts.

    We can manage to see Non BM as INDIVIDUALS despite all the harm many of thier race and gender have caused to BW and BM worldwide, present day and in the past.

    We tell each other and other BW who may be reluctant to date IR because of fear of racist WM, that you are dating the individual and not the race.

    YET. YETTTTT. We do not expect that same courtesy from others towards us! LOL.

    Instead we tell each other to jump thorugh hoops, go the extra mile and work overttime at proving ourselves because the other sisters are making it bad for us.

    Why is it, that BW can manage tell and chastize each other to understand the concept of judging a person as an individual and not their race, but when it comes to us getting that same courtesy, we do not HOLD others accountable and responsible for taking that same high road when it comes to Black women???

    This is why i am telling Black women who GET IT. JUST STOP. You are already doing the right things. you can’t do anything more than the best you are doing to be a full human being who caries herself well and wants the same courtesies that are given toothers in the world.

    If others are unwilling to extend the same couretsies that you are extending to them – OH WELL. Keep it moving and do it without the GUILT and the BURDEN of carrying the load, the baggage of your undseirable sisters. Because at the end of the day, just like the racist WM should not deter BW from finding and seeking love with the decent ones, the same SHOULD APPLY to BW. And if no man is willing to extend that courtesy to you, you don’t need or want him in you rlife. Do not over extend yourself. Do not work overttime at proving any thing. If he cannot clearly see base don your actions WHO and what you are about, he didn’t want you in the first place.

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  2. Meena
    Dec 06, 2014 @ 06:23:01

    Hi Neecy,

    I agree with what you said in your previous post as well as this one, and am sorry you had to close the comments. In any case, I believe I came to this conclusion many years ago, when I heard someone say, “Racism is not black people’s problem and sexism is not women’s problem.” The people who perpetuate the racio-misogny that is directed at black women, are the ones who have the problem and will only change their views when they see good and fit to do so. No amount of reasoning with them, gathering extensive research, or hardcore facts will move someone to believe differently unless they themselves choose to. I remember the article from Psychology Today that espoused black women were least attractive and the volume of black women who responded by saying they were in fact very beautiful. While it is admirable that they feel the way they do, if someone clearly believes a black women does not fit the category of what is beautiful, no amount of telling them bw are gorgeous will change their minds. Thus, it’s not my or any bw’s problem or responsibility to try and convince them otherwise. The best response is to keep doing you and using their behavior as a guide to completely withdraw any support from them, that may have existed prior. Very easy to do. I believe the same should go for bw that refuse to conform to the negative “forever losing and completely oblivious to this” bw types like GloZell Green (I hope one day she gets the help I believe she needs).

    Responding to your first comment on this post:
    I would fit the “evolved” category. Despite all that is going on with the police brutality cases and racist wm and non-bm in the world, I refuse to eliminate those men from my pool of potential mates. I do this more so because I do not see a viable alternative as a bw and am being strategic, rather than because I see people as individuals. As a bw in the U.S. things are quite constricted.

    (Speaking Generally and with no intention to offend):
    – Bm are not clamoring for me in droves as their actions make it clear I am not first choice on their list (I am not fair skinned or non-black lol). Ironically, I have not completely eliminated them, I just make them jump through more hoops because the consequences of not vetting them properly are too real for bw, the world over.

    – other groups of non-bm also exhibit colorism and outright racism to a larger extent, but being the way things are with bm, I wouldn’t rule them out b/c that would diminish the pool of men to choose from.

    – wm, though racist and continue to contribute to problems in society, are still at the top in terms of wealth. Among the ones who date interracially, there appears to be a preference for women who look like me. Additionally, a host of cases and personal experiences involving non-American wm, who in their actions very clearly demonstrate an appreciation for bw who look like myself, place them among top contenders on my list.

    – all groups of non-bw, more so ww, have treated me like a bitter pill to swallow, when they recognize I am in fact competition for them regarding men of all groups. I have largely gotten help or kindness from lesbians. I guess no competition does the trick.

    – bw, though nonsensical in their knee jerk support of racio-mysogynistic bm, and plagued by destructive indoctrination,are still the group to which I belong. Therefore, I am not about to throw my own group under the bus, and will continue to support those I feel place black women in a positive light that is to my liking.

    Again, my evolved behavior is a result of seeing the lay out of the land, and trying to play my cards to my advantage. “Seeing people as individuals first” is just a stealth way of describing how my interactions with each group are born from past experiences, observation of their group’s collective behavior, and strategizing to position myself as advantageously as I can.

    “Do not over extend yourself. Do not work overttime at proving any thing. If he cannot clearly see base don your actions WHO and what you are about, he didn’t want you in the first place.”

    Your comment is my philosophy, be you and put out that positive energy. Enjoy your life, and the right individuals will come. If you do all of this and they do not come, then they are not for you. Accepting this and moving on to the next is the best thing anyone can do.

    Happy that you are back to blogging and I look forward to future posts!

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    • Neecy
      Dec 06, 2014 @ 12:39:51

      MEENA,

      Thank you for this. You have a great plan and have figured out for YOURSELF how to get the best out of life. And truly all you can do is be the best you can be, and continue your journey.

      I think when BW try to have thier own journey and then take on the journey of other BW we beome desperate and lose focus on the real issue and battle.

      The beauty is, there are people out there who will embrace the positive BW. But if you spend time trying to jump through hoops and extend yourself based on the actions of OTHERS then you are just adding another unecessary burden on yourself. Because I jave found, people either take you as you are or not. Andif they don’t all you can do is keep moving and drawing those who do closer to you.

      So my message is really. Don’t waste time anymore with those who cannot look beyond thier own ignorance. i think too many BW spend too much time trying to make others see them a certain way. They see you already base don your actions nad behaviors. if they do not acknowledge that, its bevause they DO NOT WANT TO for reasons that are truly of no concern to you.

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  3. Evia
    Dec 06, 2014 @ 06:32:33

    Ok, Neecy, I’ll respond to this since some people might think I’m pro-IR. LOL

    I know I’m not supposed to assume anything, but for the sake of certain discussions, some things must be assumed. For ex., we have to assume sometimes that water is wet.

    Therefore, my assumption was that an AAbw blogger like you already KNOWS that AAbw are not on an equal playing field with the bulk of MEN or certain other women in the U.S. when it comes to mating and various other areas. Blacks, as a group, are obviously not on an equal playing field with whites, as a group. This is why there’s all the hollering that blacks do about racism. My assumption is that we all know this? If we can’t all agree on this, then there’s no point in this discussion.

    Therefore, since I believe (and I don’t need for anyone to agree with me) that mating is the MOST important function in life for human beings (to avoid extinction), then this is the thrust of most of my work: To urge AAbw and similar bw to mate with the best CQLL man she can and the bulk of those men in the U.S. are white men due to sheer numbers but also for other reasons–and my assumption (darn it!) is that we ALL know why this is the case at this point.

    Most of what most of us do in life is directly or indirectly related to mating, although you say you’re not talking about IR relationships. Okay.

    But, I interpreted your last post as you expressing frustration as to why so many AAbw have already “gotten all dressed up but have nowhere to go.” This is just a simple analogy. But if you weren’t talking about that, then I take back everything I said.

    So, I tried to point out key reasons why AAbw have fewer places to go these days. I stated that it’s largely because so many other AAbw are causing your boat to sink. I won’t call those bw ratchet, etc. Instead, I’ll call those bw who make a spectacle of themselves 24-7 “hole-drillers” because that more accurately captures exactly what they’re doing. They’re drilling holes in the boats of ALL bw, and this is the key cause for why many of you “upright” ones– who have done all you can to be included in society—may finding yours boats sinking.

    For years, I’ve been advocating that bw with common sense separate and form their own intentional communities or somehow else SEPARATE from the hole-drillers. You’re now calling for “progressive” bw to do that. Same idea, different name.

    When you mention words like “should,” then that’s another way of talking about what’s “fair”, “right,” etc. You state in your comment above that if some broad-minded bw are able to overlook the masses of racist wm and find a suitable non-racist wm as a mate, then why SHOULDN’T a broad-minded wm extend the same courtesy.

    That would be the case in a FAIR world. In a “fair” and “just” world, people do what they SHOULD do, but in the real world we live in, people pursue their interests first and foremost. Obviously, many white men don’t believe they’re on the needier side of this situation.

    There is NO equal/level playing field in the U.S. between blacks,as a group and whites, as a group. There also is NO equal/level playing field anywhere in the world between men and women–ESPECIALLY when it comes to mating–because we live in a patriarchal world, where men–in general– make most of the rules. For ex. men STILL are the ones who propose marriage. And what impacts us as groups have a heavy influence on the overwhelming most of the INDIVIDUALS in the group.

    Still, I believe that savvy, REALISTIC bw can still get their CQLL man.

    However, wm have numerous more choices among different groups of women because (1) he’s white and (2) he’s a man.

    The bottom line, and I realize that this will irk some of y’all, is that wm, in general, don’t have to extend the same courtesy to bw and they will be fine. They are in a MUCH better mating situation than AAbw.

    I may have misunderstood you, but it seems that you’re proceeding from the standpoint that the mating situation is the same for wm and bw in this country. It’s not even nearly the same.

    Darren and I got married quite a white ago. There weren’t nearly as many hole-drilling bw out there in the media then or walking around us everyday as there are today. There are a LOT of those hole-drillers (bw AND bm) out there these days! I’m tired of some blacks pretending that there are just a few bm who commit crimes or that there are just a few OOW black children or that there are just a few bw who act out. AND these folks with their drills are always going to get the lion’s share of the attention, because drills make a lot of noise.

    Let’s be real, most upright black folks are extremely wary of that population of black folks these days themselves. So, if we are wary of them and don’t extend them “courtesies,” then WHY would we even expect for other groups of people to take a chance?

    I agree that we can’t stop hole-drillers from being hole drillers. So, if enough “progressive” bw aren’t serious and aren’t ready to ‘walk the walk’ about separating and doing things that separated folks do, then it’s a wrap.

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    • Rae
      Dec 06, 2014 @ 11:33:52

      Evia both you and Neecy are correct. Yesterday I walked through times square – to 5th ave- to union square, just observing people for 3 1/2 HOURS. I did not see one Black woman with a white man. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again its extremely rare to see a bw with a wm. Hell, its extremely rare to see a black man with a black woman. All the other races off women are picked before us.The brutal truth of the matter is white men do not see black women as individuals. I used to think it was because of the stereotypical BW, I thought if I acted different I would be treated different. However, that’s not the case. Reality is hitting me more and more on how brutal white america is to black women. Also, the recent fiasco with the police across the nation killing black men does not help either. Many of the white men from what I see online are justifying and supporting NYPD. Especially, the Italian-american community. (Staten Island is predominantly white -italian american) Not only that but the class divide in America also contributes to the division among bw from other races of women. I can honestly say my hope is minuscule for black women in America. I have also come to conclude that America is not a place I can see myself living nor want to live for the rest of my life. Overall, America is not a place for black women. I have made peace with that. Black women who have the means and resources to leave America should just do that. I believe we will see more of that in the future. There are over 100 countries, 7 billion people on this earth. Why black women have any loyalty to this country bewilders me.

      Evia, 10 years ago was a long time ago. Things have changed drastically. For some apparent reason It seems that some aspects common sense is seen as respectability politics for black people.

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      • Neecy
        Dec 06, 2014 @ 13:09:48

        RAE,

        GIRL!! Ok. I completely understand the frsutration. I do. Its not good out there RIGHT NOW for us.

        But do not give up all hope. I do feel its imperative for AA women to travel abroad and see the world, meet different people and men of other cultures and just experience that for herself. Because the truth is, its not like this everywhere in the world for BW.

        But try to have some kind of positive outlook bevause truly, even though you are seeing these things, there are still BW getting married and finding love. And honestly, these BW have a differetn outlook and its not BLEAK.

        BW have to be resourceful these days to get ahead andget what we want. We have to be creative. Sitting in Times Square looking for BW/WM couplings is not pushing you forward Sweetie!

        how about putting yourself out there online with a dating site and spending your energy there as opposed to looking for a needle in a haystack.

        you have a lot going in your favor right now, but your mindset is holding you back hun. You are a young woman (18?). You are in the PRIME of your life in term sof your marketability in the dating arena! Use that to your advantage.

        Go online try a dating site. So something. Butdo not sit and look for the bad bevause you will ultimatley find it.

        America aint perfect. And I as a BW can get frustrated at times with where we are in this society. But truly? America is one of the greatest places for a BW to be. We have so much at our fingertips to be successful and to get what we want out of life. The only ones tat have held us back from doing it are US. No one has stopped BW from achieving greatness in her life – including dating life.

        We have some kink that are severe and need to be worked through before we are completely a force to be reckon with in the dating arena.

        Until then, know what it is you want in a mate, and put yourself out there. With a positve attitude and spirit and willingness to do what it takes to TRY to find a quality man, you will eventually win.

        But if everythignis bleak in your mind, it will remain Bleak.

        America can work a good nerve. but I honeslt yrealize how blessed we are to be living in a country where we as women can make things happen. it could be much worse.

        We could be pushed out of getting educationa nd employment. But BW are making stides here which gives us the resources and ability to have the kind of life we want IF WE CHOOSE IT.

        If you search hard enough for something wrong, you will find it. Its like you hve this self fulfilling prophecy.

        I have a homework assignment for you. You will not be allowed to make another complaint about hte bleakness of BW’s dating options in America until you have put yourself out there! LOL

        SO. If you want to come back and complain about it being bad for BW in the dating arena – you better have also a story of what online dating site you signed up for. For every negative I need a positve that you’ve done to counteract the negative.

        M’KAY??
        GET BUSY 😉

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      • Evia
        Dec 06, 2014 @ 13:31:25

        @Rae, re:

        Yesterday I walked through times square – to 5th ave- to union square, just observing people for 3 1/2 HOURS. I did not see one Black woman with a white man. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again its extremely rare to see a bw with a wm.

        I’ve lived in NYC and I know that it may seem like the entire universe, but NYC is not the entire U.S. I live in the DE, PA area and just last week while I was sitting at a large mall in this area, I saw 3 young BW-Wm couples within 1/2 hour at the food court, and it was obvious, they were “couples.”

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      • neurochick
        Dec 06, 2014 @ 16:54:39

        @Rae:

        Evia is correct, NYC is not the whole world. Also, when you’re in Times Square, remember that many of the people you see there are tourists, and probably not even from the US. Where I live there are many BW/WM married couples, and heck, that’s in NYC. I walk through Koreatown and many times I see Korean men with Black women, seriously and no one even looks twice. Many of the young BW I know, family and friends are married to WM and nonBM. One young lady met her husband on an internet dating site and this is in the deep South.

        Staten Island has always been mainly Italian American, and many people who live there are NYPD either active or retired. That’s why the verdict didn’t surprise me.

        As for the “ratchet” BW who go on reality TV and act like fools; when someone brings one of them up to me, I tell them that those women are on TV for $$$. They know the more outrageous they are, the more camera time they get, the more camera time they get, the more money they get. It’s a short lived career though; the lucky ones build brands (if anybody even wants to buy what they’re selling) and some of them wind up getting paid pennies to “host” at seedy clubs across the country.

        I agree with Neecy when she said if you look for the negative, you find the negative.

        But, I do think it’s a great idea for BW to travel the world, I have done so and it’s broadened my mind, always have your passport ready!

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    • Neecy
      Dec 06, 2014 @ 12:50:08

      Evia,

      good post and you bring up a lot of good points.

      One being the reality and truth, that WM do not *HAVE* to extend themselves to BW. That is 100% correct. They will continue to get laid, date and marry with or without BW. We are a small number in the greater scheme of things.

      But, I guess this is where BW will have to determine for themsleves individually where they stand on this issue.

      Some BW will accpet that reality that others do not have to EXTEND themselves to her and will treat her as a if she should even be glad she has a date or a male companion of interest interested in her.

      Some BW will over extend themsleves and do whatever it takes to get and find love. Even if that other person is unwilling to extend courtesies to her because he knows she is in a “dire” sitation than he.

      Some BW will continue to keep her standards high and realize that it may take much longer to find a man willing to extend the same courtesies to her that she is extending to him.

      Some BW will understand and come to terms with continuing on thier journey by themselves UNTIL they feel comfortable with a man who depsite his privledge and options, still has that human quality and plays by the rule of “do unto others as they do unto you” and will settle down then.

      These women MAY or may not find that person because as you stated “life isn’t fair” and no one owes it to anyone to be fair. I guess despite that, I play by a different standard and expect to be treated the way I treat others. And I am completely ok with being single and without companionship if that is not available to me.

      Ultimatley, the beauty is, all BW have a choice to chose what works best for her and hopefully whatever choice that is, she will be able to be happy and live comfrotably with that decision and choice.

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      • Evia
        Dec 06, 2014 @ 14:43:51

        I’m not a binary thinker, so I know there can be many factors causing a situation–not just 1 or 2. In this situation, for ex., it’s NOT just those hole-drilling bw who are causing certain bw’s boats to sink. Plenty of bw are too BIG and that is something that bw CAN control. I know that’s touching the 3rd rail. I always get the most vicious hate mail that goes on for days when I mention bw’s weight on my Ezine. LOL But I take my granddaughter to the mall sometimes, and it’s really saying something when a bw my age has the slimmest figure at the mall compared to MOST of the bw there. And I’m talking about YOUNG bw. I could list a bunch of other things that render bw less competitive, but we’ve already been there and done that.

        Re RP, I went and did some reading about it, and I don’t see anything wrong with it. As a matter of fact, there’s a whole lot right about it. But once again, we shouldn’t engage in binary thinking about what would happen if all blacks followed the rules of RP. It doesn’t mean that RP would cause racism to vanish. It’s not a matter of total racism or no racism and that seems to be why so many blacks are saying that RP is a waste of time for AAblacks. But that’s binary thinking. There are nuances and degrees in most things, but many blacks prefer not to look at those.

        If an AA person follows the rules of RP, they would be a LOT more successful in this society, but that doesn’t mean that white folks will like him/her anymore or that it would get rid of racism. But I’d say that many more folks of every group would be much more accepting and have lots more RESPECT for more blacks and value the lives of blacks more if the bulk of us did things like behaved in a well-mannered way in public, didn’t engage in petty crimes, used good grammar, practiced more sexual discipline or used common sense about sex, studied and got good grades, saved and invested money, got married before having children, raised our children well, had and supported our own businesses, chastised our own, etc. These things would GREATLY help a lot of AAblacks these days to advance in various areas of life in this country, even if every single white person in the country despised ALL of us. Go ahead and bare your fangs and claws!

        A lot of whites are not fond of Arabs in this country, but that doesn’t stop Arabs from pushing ahead and thriving–because Arabs LIKE themselves. They support each others ventures. They don’t engage in petty crimes; they study and get good grades, they marry before having children, they chastise their own, they practice sexual discipline or take responsibility when they don’t, etc.

        What I don’t get is what part of this is it that blacks don’t get?????. Maybe I’m just not understanding something about this, but is it the MAIN goal of younger blacks to get white folks to like and embrace them? I constantly hear younger blacks saying, “No matter what you do, whites won’t like you anyway.” But what about YOU. Wouldn’t YOU like YOU more? Why do y’all GIVE whites so much power over you? You are GIVING them this power? I realize there’re whites around me here who don’t care for me, but I rarely ever think about them–because I care about me and I like me. Trust me, when you care about yourself and LIKE yourself, other people will definitely like you a lot more.

        The bottom line is that if AAblacks had more of their OWN thriving circles, businesses, clubs, etc., then there wouldn’t be this heavy amount of emphasis on trying to get the “white gaze” or trying to force whites to let you into their circles and clubs.

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        • Neecy
          Dec 08, 2014 @ 10:08:47

          EVIA,

          Totally agree and completely agree that a big portion that is a hard subject to discuss with BW is the weight thing. i actually think this is why Asian women fare so well dating across their race. I’m not saying its the only thing, but weight counts A LOT in mainstream society and high end circles. honestly WM in general are very weight conscious when it comes to women. Not all but most. So if BW want to even increase tier odds of competing for the most sought after WM, they have to get in shape. I am not teling BW to get WHIP CORD SKINNY or try to become some unreal body size. just IN SHAPE. Having a discernable waist line will get you very far. We need to get back our WHR we used to have back in the days. Notice in the 70’s and 80’s when BW were considered at thier best, weight issues were non existant for the most part. The only “BIG” bw you saw were that of grandmothers and older generation. There are just a lot of really big AA women these days and it does hurt their overall optinions for th moe sought after men.

          The reason why Black’s today “won’t get it”, is because they still want to play the victim and have everything handed to them. The fact is the generation of Blacks today and within the last couple of decades are simply just LAZY. If they do not get thier way its because of RACISM or some other outside source. When you play victim all the time, you cannot see your own downfalls that place you in victim status.

          Sadly, I believe fairly soon there will be some affliction in society that will no longer cater to these victim playing Blacks and Black people will be left to thier own devices. As we know these days Blacks have no real power structure nor has sought to develop one. So pretty much we are at the mercy of others who have built power structures for themselves, their races nad cultures. Many Black people will sink and others who “GET IT” will swim.

          It goes back to Khadija’s post in where she has warned BW of the walls being built around these areas and away from mainstream society where law and order is king. She as well as al other BWE blogggers have been sending the warning. And with the latest in rioting from Ferguson, I se emany Whites are becomming fed up with the HYPOCRISY of Blacks and their unwillingness to look in the mirror nad ask themselves why Black lives only matter when a Non Black kills a Black person and not when every hour on the hour some Black man is being dropped by another BLACK MAN in his same neighborhood.

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  4. onelesssoldier
    Dec 06, 2014 @ 11:00:29

    Hi, Neecy. I guess before I give my thoughts I’d like to ask two questions. For black women who already are well behaving what are the ways that some of these women would partake in Respctability politics. I think there some confusion for me. Because you’re saying that black women who are well behaving shouldn’t feel the need to play respectability politics, what are the ways that they are doing that now?
    I ask this not only for clarification but also because RP is not soemthing I’ve ever given much thought to.

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  5. Khadija Nassif
    Dec 06, 2014 @ 12:06:23

    Neecy, I have the same question that One Less Soldier asked.

    In my humble opinion, the term “Respectability Politics” is a loaded term that is generally used by Blacks with a certain type of mindset (I’ll get to that in a moment), and/or who tend to come from a certain type of family background. Going by the things you’re saying in this follow-up post, I get the feeling that you might not be using that term “respectability politics” (RP for short) in the same way the “usual suspects” among AA Blacks are using that term. I could be wrong, please correct me if I am.

    Short version: I co-sign JaliliMaster’s comment from the previous post.

    Long version: In most of the instances I’ve seen the RP term used, it’s used by AA Blacks who are trying to shame other AA Blacks for having or enforcing any standards at all in terms of conduct, character and comportment. Most of the AA Blacks who use the term RP reject the concept of there being any such thing as good character and bad character. Because having standards involves judging and assessing people.

    The folks who use the RP term typically want every choice and every type of behavior to be considered “equal.” Meanwhile, the real world doesn’t and won’t consider every choice and every type of behavior to be “equal” or “equivalent.” Never has, never will.

    To put it bluntly, most of the Blacks I’ve seen scorn what they call RP were born out of wedlock themselves to single mothers and want to defend that particular choice (of having children oow). Keep in mind, AAs now have several generations of adult AAs who were born oow.

    The Blacks I’ve seen scorn what they call RP also tend to be emotionally invested in defending the entire web of other poor choices and inferior life circumstances (oh, such as poverty and welfare) that have often been observed to accompany oow childbearing. The Blacks I’ve seen scorn what they call RP interpret any Black person speaking in support of wholesome, prudent behavior; wholesome, married-based childrearing; and the generally superior life circumstances that tend to flow from wholesome lifestyle choices as a personal affront and attack on their own single mother and/or an attack on the sperm donor who created them out of wedlock.

    Basically, talking about anything that touches on the idea of having standards stirs up a lot of unresolved issues and RAGE among the modern population of AA Blacks, many of whom were born out of wedlock themselves and grew up fatherless. In my observation, it’s similar to how any AA Black woman talking about her treasured experiences of growing up as a Daddy’s girl will automatically send many of the modern-day born-out-of-wedlock, fatherless AA BW into an enraged frenzy. Some topics stir up fatherless Black folks’ unresolved issues surrounding their fatherlessness and prompt them to lash out at anybody who is praising standards and the generally-observed superior results of having standards.

    I believe that folks should be aware that any topic that touches on the idea of having any sort of standards is a “3rd rail” for many modern day AAs. Because, even though they won’t admit it out loud (although their reactions to things tells on them)—many modern day AAs know that they’ll come up short if the level of stability in their personal family background, their personal levels of achievement, or their quality of their life is compared to that of a typical person from any other ethnicity.

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    • Rae
      Dec 06, 2014 @ 12:50:09

      Khadija THIS IS SO ACCURATE! I’ve had respectability politics thrown at me recently. Black people have a nasty attitude of ‘Anything goes, anyway-anyhow’. My mother has always said there are rules, regulations, and boundaries for everything and anything you do in life. There seems to be no set of boundaries or stable moral values in the ‘black community.’ Anyone who tries to talk about this is viciously attacked or given the side eye. SMH.

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      • Khadija Nassif
        Dec 06, 2014 @ 16:51:44

        Rae,

        I would humbly suggest that you side-step anybody who throws the term “respectability politics” at you, and/or tries to pressure you away from having standards. 🙂

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    • Neecy
      Dec 06, 2014 @ 12:55:15

      KHADIJA STATED
      In my humble opinion, the term “Respectability Politics” is a loaded term that is generally used by Blacks with a certain type of mindset (I’ll get to that in a moment), and/or who tend to come from a certain type of family background. Going by the things you’re saying in this follow-up post, I get the feeling that you might not be using that term “respectability politics” (RP for short) in the same way the “usual suspects” among AA Blacks are using that term. I could be wrong, please correct me if I am.

      ME:

      YES i think this is where the confusion may be. Because the more I read the defintion of RP, the more I realize it lies more in “VALUES” and using a higher moral compass. And frankly, Black people are LACKING in that and thus why the Black community andrace is in shambles..

      Like I said. i am still new to the term and wrangling with it. Maybe I should have just kept my mouth shut until I completely understood it.

      LOL

      Hey we are all a work in prgress!

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      • KP
        Dec 07, 2014 @ 00:45:28

        Ok, just seeing this comment. Yes, the term is as bizarre as it’s meaning, so it could be a bit difficult to comprehend for someone who is new to it.

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    • KP
      Dec 07, 2014 @ 00:43:50

      Yes, Neecy, I don’t think you’re using this term in the manner it’s creators and champions have intended. I think that’s why you’re getting the reaction you’re receiving from people who know how these new school AAs are trying to turn everything upside down to meet their low standards with this respectability politics business. I firmly believe that respectability politics is the new “keeping it real” because it’s applied to the most bizarre, degenerate situations.

      What solidified the hunch that respectability politics was the knew keeping it real for me was when the ABC said that it was RP to speak out against the near-homeless unwed mother of 5 children (all different fathers) who appeared on the Melissa Harris-Perry show. I believe her name is Tanya Fields.

      One out-of-wedlock kid, ok, you made this mistake because you were reared in an environment that says this is your only option, but FIVE out-of-wedlock children? By different men? That is not respectability politics, that is a life CHOICE with real consequences.

      The respectability politics thing has drummed up again in the wake of Ferguson. The ABC crew has said that it’s respectability politics to finger wag at people who choose to riot and burn their town down. Seriously?

      I’ve noticed that many of the people who champion this respectability politics thing are young, Black twitter feminists who have a perpetual chip on their shoulder. The one group of people I’ve yet to see them apply respectability politics to is trans people (and these young women have jumped on the trans bandwagon, so they strongly champion these people). Hmmm..wonder why? Perhaps because even as BW, they have and enjoy privileges that trans people don’t? So this tells me that respectability politics is really about making sure that you, a non-stereotypical, BW or black person, doesn’t look better than them, a likely born out-of-wedlock member of the ABC.

      That’s really what the respectability politics thing is about, ensuring that some Black people don’t enjoy any more privileges than them. It’s the crabs in a barrel syndrome. They’ll tell you, well respectability politics won’t save you, look at how they treat this person or that person, ummm…that’s called pure irrational racism. Yea racists will regard you in a certain way regardless of how you present yourself, but don’t get it twisted and presume that everyone will regard you that way.

      These ABC respectability champions really believe that black people are inherently degenerate. They only speak of respectability politics in terms of black people. Just because they feel that way about themselves, they should not project that on other black people who know that we aren’t.

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      • Lulu
        Dec 07, 2014 @ 08:58:15

        KP, you are so right about the AA mom of 5 OOW kids who was championed by Melissa Harris Perry. This is when I first became aware of this “anti-respectability politics” nonsense. The fact that anyone who spoke out against this woman’s behavior was shouted down and told they were wrong and practicing “respectability politics” blew my mind. This woman got up and complained that she can’t feed her five kids and that she’s got another on the way and the father had just vanished! And anyone who said “Ma’am, you’ve messed up and it’s time to take responsibility for yourself and your kids” was labeled as “anti-black”, “bougie”, and a “respectable black”, as if that’s a bad thing.

        And yes, as I said on the previous thread before it was closed, this stuff is being pushed by black “intellectuals” who grew up in broken homes and in ghetto neighborhoods. They were smart enough to go off to college but couldn’t handle it socially because they never knew how to act outside of Blackistan. And so they come up with this “respectability politics” garbage.

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      • Neecy
        Dec 08, 2014 @ 10:13:55

        Yeah i think I am going to drop this term. i am glad this happened on the blog bevause now I can see how using that term can get the “wrong” kind of Black speople in agreement with me and that is *NOT* my intentions.

        I think the term now that I am reading more of your posts, is dangerous because its almost like a pass for Black people to say “yeah we shouldn’t have to act respectable to get respect”.

        So i have decided to not even use the term anymore.

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      • Neecy
        Dec 08, 2014 @ 12:16:54

        OMG KP I remember that story! UGh i think I had planned on writing a post about it, but forgot or something. i think I actually will now. Thank you for reminding me of this sad story.

        That is EXACTLY what i am talking about. People like Melissa-Harris Peery who SHOULD KNOW BETTER defending and giving a public forum for that nonsense.

        I couldn’t contain my anger as I watched this woman sit on her show, defending this Tanya Fields against the opinions that her actions are careless and “not cute”. Not to mention defending her right to just keep having kids carelessly by different men WHO WERE NOT EVEN SUPPORTING THEM. Additionally, this Tanya Fields is on public assistance taking OUR TAX DOLLARS to support her baby making nonsense. But I guess because she build organic vegetable gardens in the hood we were supposed to overlook that (yes that was the excuse some people used to defend her baby momma making actions).

        I was Furious!

        And why do I care that this woman builds vegetable gardens in the hood??? As if that excuses her carelessness in just having babies carelessly with different men who BOTH she & they cannot support and has to rely on public assistance.

        UGH.

        This entitlement of these kinds of BW is getting ridiculous. She sat right up on a public forum telling everyone about her 5 kids by different men and then got mad when people gave their opinions – which were not all favorable. Well if you do not want to be judged, don’t put your damn business in a public forum!

        You dun got me fired up! LOL.

        Unbelivable. i’m making a post on this. Thank you for brining this up.

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  6. Neecy
    Dec 06, 2014 @ 12:30:44

    OLS & Khadija,

    Good question. That is something I realized I never fully explained. I also want to make a complete separate post on RP and my take on it because I’ll admit I threw the term out there, asked BW to stop doing it, and did not expand in detail on why. So thank you for brining this to my attention.

    Also, I should have included the definition I found of what RP is and where I drew my conclusion. So I’ll post the definition here and then expand on why I feel a lot of Progressive BW (myself included until recently) do this often times without realizing that we are doing it. Let me just say I do not think RP is necessarily BAD. I just think it’s a Bit misguided and doesn’t cover the whole story.
    Wikipedia’s def os RP:

    “Respectability politics or the politics of respectability refers to attempts by marginalised groups to police their own members and show their social values as being continuous and compatible with mainstream values rather than challenging the mainstream for its failure to accept difference. The concept was first articulated by Evelyn Brooks Higginbotham in her book Righteous Discontent: The Women’s Movement in the Black Baptist Church, 1880—1920. In the context of black American history, respectability politics was practised as a way of attempting to consciously set aside and undermine cultural and moral practices thought to be disrespected by wider society, especially in the context of the family and good manners.[1] The development of African-American politics of responsibility has been traced to writers and activists including W. E. B. DuBois and Booker T. Washington,”

    I feel that unintentionally a lot of “Progressive” BW do this when we speak of indoctrinated BW “acting up”. And we do this TRULY without malice or ill intentions. We truly want the best for all BW.

    But When we say that the other sisters are making it bad for us because of their actions, then we are saying that if only they straightened up, our situations would be better. We’ve put all our eggs in their basket, and frankly that will get us nowhere because we cannot grab every BW “not acting right” and beat them into submission.

    I’m saying (and I could be completely off base with this) that NOW I am not so sure that they are truly the only problem as I’ve felt in the past. I’m now starting to believe the REAL crux of this issue in terms of BW and our perceptions lies in the REALITY that Progressive BW have not done a good enough job of DIVESTING from them and those images PUBLICLY, PRIVATLEY and in all ways possible.
    Instead of “policing” our sisters, we should have been spending that time PROMOTING ourselves like they were doing.

    How other groups and races have dealt with their undesirables is NOT brow beat them into submission to “acting right”, (as that overall strategy is futile because human beings are not a monolith in character) but have instead, taken that energy to DENOUNCE their behaviors and actions AS WELL AS do everything in their power to promote and make everyone consciously aware that THEY EXIST and will not allow one type of image to destroy their collective.

    So in essence, we have been “policing” our sisters and holding them squarely accountable for the overall bad perceptions of us as a collective. But the problem is more robust than that and this is why I am saying playing RP by policing bad acting BW isn’t the ONLY key to solving this problem. There are other COMPNENETS that have to be taken into consideration, and some of those components are others who have the POWER to keep ignoring us and promoting the other BW for their own benefits.

    So basically that is why I brought others into the equation, and used those small examples of how even when BW are being the best they can be, there are still daggers thrown our way. Because now its hard for everyone to turn back. People are so used to benefiting off the negative images of BW, that now we are not only fighting a battle against the BW who are tarnishing the Black woman image, but people who have BENEFITED and now have a heavy investment in keeping us that way.

    It is not the NORM for BW to be seen a certain way. So much so that a BW who doesn’t act that way is almost brow beaten into being made to feel that she really “is that way” and “let me remind you why” (hence the examples I used).
    Because BW have to understand that even if we fixed our broken, there will still be a force out there who will try to keep us in that collective undesirable position because IT BENEFITS THEM.

    And so the real battle does not begin and end with bad acting BW, it may start there, but it will truly end with us divesting, creating and being more PRO ACTIVE about creating other sources and entities and to build a power structure for ourselves as women.

    That power structure should HAVE been created a long time ago. But it wasn’t. And as a result, we have diverted all of our attentions into trying to fix the broken and crazy, when really the broken and crazy has every right to present themselves and their ilk as they see fit.

    Progressive BW should have been building power structures the minute we started seeing the train wreck. And believe me we all saw it and did nothing. That’s the truth.

    So ultimatley, I am no longer of the belief that the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of our indoctrinated sisters. There is a lot of blame to toss around, and we gotta look at ourselves as Progressive BW and ask what we have done TRULY to counteract this.

    And honestly, it hasn’t been until BWE founders like yourself and Evia and Halima and Sarah (who no longer blogs) and some others who have made that initial step. that is what got me fired up. Yall. And we gotta keep building and moving upward.

    Now we have to take that torch and move it forward. I just do not feel that bad acting BW are solely the problem anymore and I am even going out on a limb to say I don’t even think we need to focus on them to make things right.

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    • Khadija Nassif
      Dec 06, 2014 @ 16:26:17

      Neecy,

      Thanks for explaining what you mean by RP. Here are my thoughts in response.

      I personally believe that RP are mostly a good thing. Because the behaviors that are typically perceived as engaging in RP (as Evia succinctly summarized them):

      —“. . . . behaved in a well-mannered way in public, didn’t engage in petty crimes, used good grammar, practiced more sexual discipline or used common sense about sex, studied and got good grades, saved and invested money, got married before having children, raised our children well, had and supported our own businesses, chastised our own, etc.”—

      Lead to the MUCH increased probability of individual and group success. AAs can pretend like we don’t know this, but it’s Reality/Common Sense 101. And we can all see this reality played out in the rise of the immigrant ethnic groups that practice these common sense values, such as immigrant Muslims, East Indians, and Asians.

      Modern day, mostly fatherless AA adults don’t want to clean up their behavior. So they come up with all sorts of sophisticated-sounding (but lacking in common sense) ideological jargon to take the focus off of their self-defeating, inferior behaviors. Modern day, mostly fatherless AA adults ALSO deliberately ascribe false motivations to those other AA Blacks who choose to “behave in a well-mannered way in public, don’t engage in petty crimes, use good grammar, practice more sexual discipline, study and get good grades, save and invest money, get married before having children,” etc,, etc., etc.

      Modern day, mostly fatherless AA adults like to claim that those other AA Blacks who do these things are doing so to appease White people. NO, most people I’ve encountered who “behave in a well-mannered way in public, etc., etc.,” do so because they were raised well—they were raised to behave and carry themselves in this fashion, AND they know that doing these things increase the odds of success in life. Full stop. Period.

      It’s similar to the goofy claim that any AA Black student who studies and gets good grades is somehow “acting White.” Sane, civilized, gracious behavior and lifestyles shouldn’t be perceived as a bad thing. Which is what has happened among the modern, fatherless masses of AAs. This is typical Dead AA Collective upside-down, inside-out, down-is-up sort of distorted thinking.

      Here’s where I agree to disagree with part of what you’re saying.

      NEECY SAID (I’ve emphasized certain parts in bold):

      —“But When we say that the other sisters are making it bad for us because of their actions, then we are saying that if only they straightened up, our situations would be better. We’ve put all our eggs in their basket, and frankly that will get us nowhere because we cannot grab every BW “not acting right” and beat them into submission.”—

      I believe there are several unwarranted assumptions in the above statement. First, I don’t recall hearing or seeing anybody saying that IF ONLY “hole-drilling” BW straighten up then things would be better for AABW in general. Because I don’t recall hearing or seeing anybody saying that “hole-drilling” BW are the ONLY source of BW’s problems. “Hole-drilling” BW are PART of the problem. And since they’re part of what’s causing BW’s problems, if these women would cease and desist from their “hole-drilling” behaviors, then AABW would be better off. Because it’s always better to reduce parts of a problem than have it remain full-sized (or grow).

      I also disagree with your view that sane, sensible, civilized BW “put all [their] eggs in their basket.” [Put all their eggs in the basket of trying to get “hole-drilling” BW to stop drilling holes.] I believe there’s an unwarranted assumption in this statement. For a sane, sensible, civilized BW to say, “I don’t like hole-drilling behavior, it’s creating and adding to problems, and I’d prefer that the hole-drillers knock it off” does not equal putting all one’s eggs in any particular basket. It simply means that person is saying that they don’t like hole-drilling behavior, they feel it’s creating or adding to problems, and would prefer that it stop.

      Here’s the thing—“Hole-drilling” AAs and Their Ideological Cheerleaders don’t want any criticism whatsoever to be made of these hole-drilling behaviors. I believe this posture is rooted in many of these people being the children of “hole-drilling” BW and coming from “hole-drilling” homes. Basically, modern AAs have come up with all sorts of sophisticated-sounding ideology and jargon to massage their various emotional problems. Including and especially the emotional problems and deficits caused by fatherlessness and being raised by a single mother.

      So when in your earlier post you sounded like you were striking a blow against RP—and by extension, against the moral and family VALUES underlying RP—a lot of Born OOW/Fatherless Readers and Readers Who Cheerlead OOW/Pretending That Fatherlessness Is A-Okay quickly latched onto your post and ran with it. In my view, they ran with your earlier post in a way that you might not have intended*. Which is what caused many of the other comments in opposition to the Readers Who Cheerlead OOW/Pretend That Fatherlessness Is A-Okay. All of which is what caused the conversation in the earlier post to go off the rails. LOL.

      [*I didn’t think you necessarily meant RP in the way these other folks did because I’ve never seen you act like OOW & Fatherlessness is just fine and dandy–LOL!]

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      • Neecy
        Dec 08, 2014 @ 10:16:08

        @ Khadija,

        YES. Thank you! I’m realizing how harmful that term could be because the Blacks who are always looking for an excuse to not better themselves, will jump on that term and agree that we shouldn’t “act right”.

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  7. Neecy
    Dec 06, 2014 @ 13:15:56

    ATTENTION EVERYONE:

    Rae is no longer allowed to complain about the plights and preils of BW finding love in America unless she has exhausted all of her resources to do such.

    So please help me monitor her posts and we will get on her case if she comes back complaining about how “bleak it is” for BW when she hasn’t given a report on something she has done to HELP the situation. LOL

    Her first assignment is signing up for a dtaing website and putting herslf out there.

    if she does nothing, she cannot complain.

    LOVE YA RAE!! But this is for your own good! *MUAH*

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  8. Rae
    Dec 06, 2014 @ 13:22:55

    LOL! Neecy, you gave me a good laugh! You’re right, I need to have a more positive mindset! Positive people attract positive people. Online dating is not something I would do right now in my life, I’m young and I’m good at making friends.(: First, I do want to work on myself. 2015 is and WILL be my year! Thanks again for the advice! Love you too!(:

    Goals for 2015: -Lose weight
    -make more friends and start dating
    -out more effort into my appearance
    -work and save money!
    -travel !
    -graduate and go into 4 year school!

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    • Neecy
      Dec 06, 2014 @ 13:28:12

      YES That’s the RAE I know and love!! Positive Positive energy dahling!

      you have some great goals. And yes you are right, you got the power girl bevause an 18 year old doesn’t need to go online. Thatis why i do not want tohear anymore bad stuff about you sitting in Times Square for 3 1/2 hours looking for needles in a haystack!

      I’m 40 and I do not even have a bleak outlook and do fairly well in dating. You are 18. Wanna switch positions?? Cause I’l take 18 again with the QUICKNESS and clean up out there!

      When i was you age, I was BLACK indoctrinated. At least you are getting infor that women of my generation didn’t have until much later.

      Ok. I am glad you have goals. Now focus onthem and be positive. Its ok to be frustrated. A lot of BW are – including myself. But what keeps me going is I am working on a lot of things, and hopefull withint he next couple years I can devote myself full time to this passion of mine in helping BW push forward.

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  9. Rae
    Dec 06, 2014 @ 13:45:00

    btw I turned 19 in October! 2015, I’ll be turning 20! Yikes! LOL

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    • Neecy
      Dec 06, 2014 @ 13:51:12

      OH POOR YOU!

      Sucks to be OLD huh Rae! 🙄

      Well I’ll be *elderly* in March – I’ll bet 41.

      😛

      Well I’m off to my MAC make up class! YIPEE!!! Talk to yall later…

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  10. Rae
    Dec 06, 2014 @ 13:53:01

    my mom is turning 47 in 2 weeks! (; my dad 57!

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  11. Olu
    Dec 06, 2014 @ 15:46:42

    Hey Neecy,
    I’m going to challenge your perception that pro-IR BW are more “evolved” because they “overlook” the negative stereotypes or histories of non-BM and especially WM that might otherwise disqualify them as partners. Truthfully, the pro-IR BW are a small minority. And the pro-IR BW who are vocal about correcting other black women’s misconceptions about non-BM (which ultimately hurts BW the most) are an even smaller group. Moreover, among these BW, I’m realize that many are revising their perception of non-BM out of necessity given BM’s exodus and these BW’s desire to have relationships. In trust, MOST black women DO judge other groups of men according to perceptions of what negative qualities these men have, particularly in relation to BM (whose faults, as you know, BW tend to ignore). And, rather than holding BM accountable for their hatred of black women and failures to do what real men do (build thriving communities and countries, uplift the women of their group, etc.), many actively deflect the anger they experience from the other men oppressing (or succeeding above) BM. Halima’s post spoke about this and more: http://dateawhiteguy.blogspot.com/2009/07/give-it-up-or-embrace-fruits-thereof.html

    More so than other groups of women, who tend to be more focused on individual men as it is in their self-interest to do so, I’ve seen black women making blanket generalizations that all WM are racists, that all Asian men have small penises, all Middle Eastern men are abusive, all non-BM want to use them for sexual gratification and not marry them (the irony would be funny if not so sad). And these BW tend to do this in order to bolster the ego of black men, or soothe BM’s sore bottom as they are getting whooped on all levels by men across the globe. The small minority of BW who might be vocal about the fact that they do not hold these beliefs mirror the small number of non-BM who ALSO do not buy into stereotypical views of BW and see them as individuals. All are silently living their lives as they should, and so are largely hidden. So just as you noted that there are vocal non-BM who believe and promote stereotypes about BW (black men join them in doing this, of course), there are BW who do the same as well…particularly to discourage other BW from IR relationships smh. There might even be an equal percentage of them, who knows.

    I get what you’re saying about the respectability politics, but my problem with the “negative acting” BW is that, as Evia aptly put it, they are “hole drillers.” In my view, it’s not just that they are acting in stereotypical ways that is the problem. It’s that they recklessly birth, sustain, coddle, reproduce, etc. the men who are destroying the black female collective (lives and image) AND also put themselves in OPPOSITION to just about all potential non-black allies we might have. By standing in allegiance with black men, crying “racism” or “Uncle Tom”/”sellout,” to all those who have tried to respond to black men’s dysfunctions in ways that might have benefited black women, just to protect black men (at BW’s expense), they have put themselves in opposition to progressive BW. And simply put, no matter how progressive-minded BW try to restore our image, the proliferation of these stereotypical women and the men they worship will undo whatever work is done to promote black womanhood. For example, Shonda Rhimes has done amazing work in the media presenting BW as normal, multidimensional women. But BM-identified women, rather than recognizing this, criticize her for the IR relationship between the BW and WM president on Scandal. They are sending a message yet again that BW are not cut out for IR relationships, or being allowed to be like other women. I don’t watch much TV so haven’t seen the show, but I’ve read from others that Shonda Rhimes included an IR relationship between a BM and WW (or several of this pairing) on another show—a relationship that BM-identified women were of course silent about. That is to say, BM-identified women are not innocuous parts of the black female collective. I believe many intentionally work to keep BW chained at the bottom with black men, to dictate what is proper behavior for black women (which usually runs counter to what thriving groups of women are doing), and to endlessly make BW feel guilty for living their lives as free agents. While I do get that the media over-displays these kinds of BW, I believe most black men AND black women would rather see these representations than representations of BW who are beholden to black men, black people, or anyone else for that matter.

    And I agree 100% with Evia about the fact that non-BM do not need (note that I’m not saying that they shouldn’t but stating facts) to challenge their own stereotypes about BW. What for? They do fine as is, and with so many black women publicly allying themselves with BM, who wants to actively search in a pool where women have already basically imprinted “property of BM” onto themselves? And then on top of that oftentimes require non-BM to basically kiss black men’s butts to prove that they are non-racist? So I see a non-BM going for an individual BW who he finds suitable for him, but given the rampant BM-identification among BM I understand perfectly why SOME WM would take the less thorny road to finding love and partnership. This is not to offend or discourage any black women who may be reading this, but we need to keep it real in order to engage more effectively with the real world.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 08, 2014 @ 10:29:43

      OLU,

      Yes you are correct. There are scores of BW sister soldiers etc. who denounce and put down and stereotype NOn BM as a way to get scooby snacks from the Black community and to soothe BM’s egos.

      And this is where it relates back to my post. THEY can sing from the mountaintops all they want – that is thier right even though we view it as sabotage and utterly stupid. But it is what it is. The problem is BW like us have not been trying to drown them out. We have been SILENT.

      So then whose fault is that?

      There are BW who truly do not like WM and will never relate to them and will stereotype them as all being racist and “unworthy”. They have a right to feel that way, just as there are WM who can never relate to a BW and view us all as having nasty attitudes and masculine behavioral attributes. They also have their right to feel that way. HOWEVER, the problem is not them saying how they feel or even trying to sabotage BW from entering IR’s.

      THE REAL PROBLEM and frustration with BW like us is truly we have NOT loudly spoken against them and they have been the only voices.

      Our surival instincts as Progressive BW are now kicking in when its just a lil too late. So we are desperatley clinging onto the idea that the “hole drilling BW” are sabotaging us and have been, but there was also nothing to stop us from openly sabotaging them!

      So in essence. Going back to my post, it would be “nice” if other BW did not do this. But life is not fair and people are always going to stand up and speak out on things and people whether we like thier ideas or not. We have JUST AS MUCH right to speak out about our willingess and desires to date out and basically counteract the message from the other BW.

      BUT WE HAVEN’t. So sitting here blaming other BW is futile IMO because we cannot place a muzzle on thier mouths adn dare we try to take the drill out of thier hands, we will have a huge nasty and unecessary fight on our hands when we could just do what they are doing and HOLE DRILL thier message. Trying to argue with them only makes the problem worse.

      So I am saying STOP WORRYING about them and start using their same tactics of hole drilling thier message as women to get what we want and to send a message to the world that while there may be BW who feel this way, we feel a different way.

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  12. onelesssoldier
    Dec 06, 2014 @ 16:57:55

    Thanks, for clarifying Neecy, I get what you’re trying to say. Here is what I think. (and your post has alerted me that for lots a black women RP is a big issue for black women so maybe I should make one of my own on my own blog. ) BTW this is long.

    I do not think the problem is simply that black women have not done a good job of creating god PR for themselves. (I mean I agree with this concept you know I talk about black women creating their own image/pr on my blog.) I believe that the bigger problem is that most black people have an idea that there is some sort of “we can all get along”/ anti-critical/ “non-judgmental” way of living. I know that this concept has especially come into the forefront of overall society with the general push to “not judge” because nobody is “hurting anyone” and so people should skin and grin and be happy with whatever idiocy people decide to push into the atmosphere.
    This is especially true of black people. Most blacks believe that we should not “judge” them by wp standards and really these supposed wp standards are anything that doesn’t allow, support and engage in the people who refuse to do anything or want to defend their own lifestyle.(Khadija pointed this out with the oow families.
    The problem with these people and how it concerns the “regular” black people is not that they are wasting their time trying to correct these people (all though I agree with you that that is foolish and a waste of time. Especially since we all know you can’t lie with dogs and not get dirty.) but the larger issue is that these so called “educated” and “smart” black people let the likes of the permanent underclass ( and don’t get me wrong I don’t mean “poor” I mean the people with all of their dysfunctional behavior that they do nothing to change and refuse make any attempts to better themselves) SPEAK FOR THEM.
    Here is what I mean and I can see that we are making somewhat of the same point. These supposed educated black people refuse to ignore the tantrums of the black people who refuse to get themselves together. See the issues in Ferguson; instead of the intelligent black people spending their resources looking for ACTUAL solutions, they let the likes of Al Sharptons, Jesse Jacksons et al hold them hostage under some sort of weird Idea that in 2014 RIOTING and PROTESTING and “speaking out” and #hashtaging and #bloggingforblackboys is the way to go to get people to stop killing them.
    I do not think that the problem is that black women go around trying to blame the underclass for their behavior or police them. At least that would be an admittance that certain behavior is WRONG/ deviant/ Unproductive. Instead we’ve fast come under a sort of law where up means down and down means sideways and sideways means yesterday.
    When the so called smart black people try and say something is wrong these underclass decide to PRETEND there really isn’t a man behind any curtain at all.
    I like to think of the show I dream of Jeanie. Weird stuff would always happen like elephants in the living room and major Bellows would ask what was going on. Nelson and Jeanie would simply respond “What? I don’t see any elephant in the living room”
    The problem with MOST black women is that they haven’t even GOTTEN to the point where they WOULD condemn or even follow behind trying to correct those people because most of them are DEFENDING the underclasses right to do whatever. Or they’re shutting down their own attempts at betterment because others feel bad that some bw are painting themselves as “better”/
    See the problem (in my eyes at least) is that most of these black women who know better and can sense something is OFF fall for the grand ole okey doke.
    They don’t simply identify the problem or even call it out and move on. And I agree with your point that black women don’t create their own media. But then why would they. They actively HELP those people SPEAK FOR THEM. Even the ones who are playing respectability politics are still actively allowing those people to be THE voice of black people. I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t think that black women are spending their time trying to CHANGE those bad acting black women, even if they are playing the RP game they screwing themselves the most by refusing to disassociate themselves and ultimately aligning themselves with any and every black face in existence with a sob story and smile.
    I do agree that it’s not the underclasses fault though, most black women are not smart enough to stop falling for the tantrums these people have. They HELP these same get a leg up. They let themselves be guilted into being given the mic. They foolishly support these idiots in their slave movies, erasure, whitewashing, mammyism crap genre music etc. There is a big difference between accepting that someone CAN do something while distancing and denouncing and ACTIVELY supporting them
    I would even venture to say that the need for black women to create their own media/repair what the underclass bw continue to BREAK (because bw don’t protect the GOOD images they have) would be lessened if black women would simply stomp these people out/ silence them by putting them on what other bwe writers call “nignore” (not sure who coined that”). Forget making media, they are giving the underclass all the tools they need to mess everything up. All. BY. Themselves. You don’t need to correct or change them. BW do need to stop giving them THEIR resources to go and eff up everything. Unfortunately BW refuse to do this.

    Sorry that was long and I still have some more thoughts. Yes I definitely think I will make a post on this soon. And I’m interested in hearing what you have to say about my comments. 
    Oh I’d also like to add right quick that I do not think that simply making media will be enough. Having varied images can only work if you have the PRIVILEGE to be differentiated. BW don’t have those privileges and they refuse to use alliances. The only way I believe black women can help themselves is to create new media and refuse to give the mic to the people who feel they can talk. Imo there isn’t room for everyone especially in a group of people who don’t have that privilege varied images or not.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 08, 2014 @ 10:39:53

      OLS SAID:
      but the larger issue is that these so called “educated” and “smart” black people let the likes of the permanent underclass ( and don’t get me wrong I don’t mean “poor” I mean the people with all of their dysfunctional behavior that they do nothing to change and refuse make any attempts to better themselves) SPEAK FOR THEM.

      BINGO! I think this is a major part of the message i am trying to get across.

      Regular Blacks folks have done nothing to “hole drill” the Blacks who keep trying to sink our collective boat to the bottom.

      And this is how I feel of BW like us who are trying to fight an uphill battle now. Now that our survival instincts have kicked in (bevause this is the crossroad point of do or die, feast or famine) we are speaking out. But for the longest there was a huge void and I think many Blacks kept quiet out of fear and shear knoweldge that anythign they said would fall on deaf ears and they would receive a huge pushback.

      Unlike other races and cultures who can speak directly out against thier “hole drillers”, Blacks and BW like us are in a very different position. That is because, there is a very strong pushback against any Black perosn who speaks out against the nonsense and sabotaging behaviors of Blacks. So instead, we should adopt a different approach by stronly creating a seperate culture so that at LEAST we are doing somehting other than sitting quietly while they destroy the collective culture and image of Blacks.

      This is why I now say I am not so sure they are really the whole of the problem. Because while there was nothing stopping htem or other BW from HOLE DRILLING the Black collective, there was nothing stopping us from HOLE DRILLING their efforts. If we had done this with as much vigor as the hole drillers have been doing to the Blacks who want a more respetable culture, we’d have enough balance to where they wouldn’t be such a huge problem or distraciton because we would no longer depend on them to define who we are as a Black collective, if we had created a seperate culture from thiers.

      But to the overall point ot everyone here. RP is not somehting I am going to tackle anymore because now I can truly see how it has given Blacks a “pass” for bad decisions nad behaviors.

      And I thank all of you for bringing that to my attention! 🙂

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      • DiraD
        Dec 08, 2014 @ 14:05:09

        Hey Neecy,

        Sorry for not responding to your post earlier, crazy weekend. First, let me say that I understood the intent of your original post. However, I would also like to state that I appreciated the dissenting opinions of Evia, Khadija, et al. BW can learn so much by just reading the comments here and at other BWE site.

        I think you are correct with assigning a portion blame (for our negative image) to those of us (BW) who should know better. How many of us from the black middle class+ have defended the ratchery of the underclass? How many of us watch RHOA, Basketball Wives, etc.? How many of us have defended the filth of rap under the guise of “free speech?” I, myself, was guilty of cosigning this nonsense, even though I am a 4th generation. We give the mick to anyone, especially anyone with a degree (Skippy Gates anyone?) and that has to stop. There will always be hoodrat black folks, however, we do not have to legitimize their foolishness.

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        • Evia
          Dec 09, 2014 @ 05:57:26

          How many of us from the black middle class+ have defended the ratchery of the underclass?

          Okay, I’m “Old School” and I’m about to put some of y’all on blast. Just a warning, to give sensitive ones here a chance to skip this comment. LOL! But I can no longer stomach the whole Amen Corner and Hallelujah Chorus that takes place on some of these so-called BWE sites. This doesn’t relate to the topic of my EZINE, so this is why I comment here and on OLS’s site.

          I’m THANKFUL that I remember and am a product of the culture AAs used to have BEFORE the Civil Rights Movement (CRM). It was that culture that shaped me. There would be NO “Evia” without that culture. The CRM did a ton of good, but in the process, certain AAs TRASHED the culture they had before the CRM. It wasn’t the movement; it was certain PEOPLE who trashed that culture that we had that had brought us through the AA holocaust and with our heads on mostly straight. SOME AAs had their heads on backwards all along. But those AAs were kept under strict control prior to the CRM.

          But one of the bad aspects of the CRM was that it took place during the 60s and 70s, during the time of ultra liberal, leftist, “flower children hippie whites” demonstrating against the Vietnam War and injustices that their parents (the “establishment”) had perpetrated. This movement of the leftist whites and flower children ushered in a lax philosophy captured in slogans like: “Let it ALL hang out,” or “whatever floats your boat” “go with the flow,” “whatever makes you feel good,” and we all danced and sang along loudly to songs like “Different Strokes for Different Folks” and “It’s Your Thang, Do What You Want To Do.” The hippies were vigorous proponents of “free love/sex” which meant that men and women should just have sex whenever the feeling hit them and with whomever they wanted. LOTS of hippie ww (young, well-educated, middle to upper class women with long flowing hair) would just have sex with just about any man of their choice–right on the spot. I participated in some of those demonstrations on my major NYC college campus (late 70s) where some ww college girls would just lie there and let men feel them up and sometimes do more. This was the first strong taste that AA men got of sex with ww, so this is another major reason why MANY AA males embraced leftist/ultra liberal whites. Some AA women also became involved with wm then too. This just goes to show that music lyrics can be very destructive to weaker-minded folks and this is why music lyrics and certain musicians are strictly monitored and suppressed in certain countries.

          This thing called RESPECTABILITY or the “respectability” part of respectability politics was embedded in the culture of AAs before the CRM. But NOT afterwards. Get this: Most people in the world try to behave in a respectable way. It’s NOT a white thing!!! Many AAs, after the CRM, believed that being a respectable person who did common sense things like having a strong work ethic or sexual restraint, behaving with decorum, cooperating with and supporting other blacks, studying and getting good grades, etc. was considered being “uptight” and “square,” and acting WHITE etc. So, by that time, most AAs had adopted the “do what you wanna do and only if you want to do it” doctrine.

          Of course, lots of mainstream whites never subscribed to any of this. Most of them remained their “uptight,” “square,” and “white” selves. Yeah, they were racist but I’m just saying they didn’t fall for the okey dokes and we know now that plenty of 60s white leftists and hippies have joined the ranks of staunch white racists.

          As I said in another comment on OLS’ site, when the dust settled, the overwhelming most of ALL whites (including the leftist whites, hippies/flower children, etc.) segregated themselves from blacks and went back to being white again. We see this today.

          But we now have AAblacks turning up their noses at the whole spectrum of respectability behaviors because it doesn’t allow them to do what they want to do, when they want to do it, in any kind of way they want to do it, or only if they feel like doing it, and they have SUCCEEDED in gagging other blacks who dare to criticize them.

          As Neecy said here and some of us have been saying, most of y’all have ALLOWED the patients in the asylum to take over the asylum and put the doctors and other medical staff on mute.

          Well, NOT me, because I’ve never gone along with it. I’ve been in vocal opposition to it all along ONLINE and OFFLINE and folks who know me offline know that about me. I don’t do that “go along to get along” dance because I do not WANT to get along with asylum patients.

          So that old culture that AAs down South had prior to the CRM that brought us through the multi-hundred year holocaust called the “black experience in America” was TRASHED by AAs who thought we had overcome. And they’re still trashing it when they oppose respectable behaviors.

          Question: How many of y’all who claim to be BWE supporters are actually supporting BWE projects or plan to do so? I’m not talking about TALKING about supporting.

          Many of you who read the BWE material and make these forums your 2nd home don’t support BWE projects. Y’all talk a strong game about how those “other” black folks are ratchets, Blackistanis, hole-drillers, ghetto, ABCs, etc. Yeah, those folks are very destructive but when YOU don’t support BWE uplifting projects, you’re not much different. Don’t kid yourself about that! We already know we don’t have anything anymore, so when ones of us come us with a good idea like the CHALLENGE that Homestead GlamourGirl has put out there, unless you’re full of mess, you should support it with a nickel, dime, or a dollar. So, just about ALL of you CAN support that challenge on some level (if you haven’t already). And those of you who don’t do it, just stop hanging on to my coattails because I’m a woman who believes in ACTION. I don’t want a whole bunch of folks around me who are mere TALKERS. Talking alone NEVER changed anything.

          Old school “respectable” black folks did NOT allow other black folk to sit around them testifying, pontificating, pretending to be holier-than-thou, and hollering “Amen” when they weren’t doing diddly to support the good things we do.

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          • DiraD
            Dec 09, 2014 @ 11:51:32

            @Evia
            I would like to apologize if my comments came across as holier than thou or pontificating, that was not my intention. I mentioned the black middle class+ cosigning the underclass dysfunction because I was guilty of such behavior and now despise my support of such foolishness.

            Old school AA values enabled my family to not only survive, but to thrive while living under Jim Crow. My ancestors attended college and amassed land despite their hardships.

            You are also correct about us in the BWE audience. We,the BWE audience, need to actively support BWE individuals through money and the formation of intentional communities. HomesteadGlamourGirl’s challenge is an excellent way for us to move beyond talk.

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  13. PBJ
    Dec 06, 2014 @ 21:17:24

    Hello Neecy,

    I’m new to commenting but I’ve enjoyed reading and thinking about your posts this year. Thanks for taking the time to write this “clarification” post and continuing the conversation in the comments. I know my perception of the RP term is affected by the people I’ve heard it from. These were mainly fellow college students (of various ethnicities) who were offended at the “respectability politics” of neighbors opposing loud, rowdy bacchanals every night. I also heard it from black students who felt I was a “precious princess” for respecting my parents and not wanting to hear about insane man-sharing drama.

    I definitely knew (from reading many of your other essays and comments) that you didn’t share those positions. The new post and comments reminded me to pay attention to the nuances.

    I hope that life in the real world is treating you well, and if not, I’m sure you are in the process of teaching it better manners!

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    • poweredbyjoy
      Dec 06, 2014 @ 21:22:46

      Also, thanks to Evia, Khadijah, and the other great commenters. This is like getting several blog posts in one! 🙂

      -PBJ

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    • Neecy
      Dec 08, 2014 @ 10:42:28

      THANK YOU PBJ!!

      You are correct. I think I was a bit pre-mature in trying to tackle RP before I really thought of the implications it stood for in actually supporting the things I am against when it comes to behaviors of Blacks these days.

      So I have decided to step away from the term and put it right back where I found it, and leave it. LOL

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  14. JaliliMaster
    Dec 06, 2014 @ 22:27:33

    I apologise if you felt my comment in the previous post was condescending, as that was certainly not my intention, especially towards you, the blog owner.

    My main point of disagreement with your comments was that the solutions you seemed to be proposing (i.e. that because there are certain hurdles that bw might have to go through when first interacting with other men, that bw might not necessarily put these same men through, that bw should just wait and stick it out for a man that would), to me, seems to be a losing remedy for the majority of bw that follow it. And when you disagreed with my comment referring to ww not having power, my actual comment was that the only real power they have is the power that wm allow/permit them to have.

    As regards RP, after seeing your explanation in this new post, I think that what you were referring to was different to what most black activist are talking about when they criticise RP.

    I am always wary when I hear people rail against RP. One example I can use is gay men. For a long time, they (or at least the most vocal majority) would deride anything or any gay man that showed any inkling for what they called ‘straight culture’. They would pride themselves on being ‘other’, not in the mainstream, underground etc. And for the most part, the mainstream population was happy to let them continue in that vain. It was only when gay activist stopped playing that game, and started seeking to be, well, just like everyone else, that many in the mainstream really started pushing back. One can see that for the most part, when a minority or otherwise oppressed group insist on acting/being/promoting subversive, the majority population tends to criticise them, but leave them alone. As if to say, we can’t stand you, but as long as you stay in that ‘other’ box we have created for you/you have created for yourself, and stay away from us, don’t think you can be equal to us, etc, then we will leave you in peace most of the time.

    Once the majority (or most vocal) of gay men stopped trying to challenge social norms (other than people of the same gender marrying), and started to present themselves as wanting the same as others, not being PUBLICALLY deviant, pushing forward images of themselves as living normal lives like everyone else (e.g. now wanting LEGAL MARRIAGE, building families, etc), things started to change for them. I can see a parallel with bw, that until we accept that we have to put forward positive. NORMAL images of bw, things will not even begin to improve.

    One cannot make the ‘acting up’ bw change their behaviour, but you can get them off the television and other public media. I don’t care about ‘balance’ in terms of representation. I want to remove/eliminate any demeaning/dehumanising portrayals of bw from the media/general public view (as opposed to only or mainly focusing on promoting the positive images. The two have to go hand-in-hand). It’s not going to happen, certainly not as bw are not the ones controlling any part of the media, but if you start talking about balance (which, once again, no one else does), bw will come up losing as it is always someone else (with more power/influence) deciding what that right ‘balance’ is!

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    • Khadija Nassif
      Dec 06, 2014 @ 23:00:15

      JaliliMaster,

      I agree in particular about the power angle—I agree that WW have the power that WM let them have. And, as far as one can tell, WM are content to let WW have the power that they have. It’s still a patriarchal planet. If WM really didn’t want WW to have the power they have, they’d take it from them/never would’ve allowed them to have it in the first place.

      I think what a lot of AA women forget (or don’t understand) is that NO other race of men backstab, undermine, and actively work to destroy their women and their women’s image the way AA Black males do. A lot of AABW tend to assume that gender relations between nonblack men and nonblack women are as dysfunctional as what exists between AA males and women. (I can’t call them “men” because as a group they generally don’t engage in any of the behaviors that men are known by—the masses of physically adult AA males don’t protect, provide, problem-solve or produce.)

      One slot that the WM who control Hollyweird have allowed WW to have significant input in is being the casting directors. Compared to the very small numbers of women directors, there are a LOT of women *casting directors* who exercise significant control over who gets what role. My subjective impression of this is that Jewish WW in particular hold a disproportionate number of casting director jobs in the American entertainment industry*. I could be wrong about that.

      [*Which would make sense because the men in their group own and control a disproportionate number of businesses in the American entertainment industry. See the book bragging about . . . err, celebrating their disproportionate control titled “An Empire of Their Own: How the Jews Invented Hollywood”
      http://tinyurl.com/lky6yxl%5D

      These casting director jobs are an example of people quietly exercising a lot of influence over the images seen (or not seen) of BW in Hollywood. There are others who also exercise this type of control, some of whom have the last word about who gets cast in various productions, such as the production’s director, producer and sometimes the star.

      Anyhoo, here are a couple of articles about the casting director biz:

      How Casting Directors Find (and Make) New Stars
      http://www.vulture.com/2013/10/how-casting-agents-find-and-make-new-stars.html

      Top 25 Casting Directors in Film and TV
      http://www.backstage.com/advice-for-actors/resources/top-25-power-casting-directors-in-film-and-tv/

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      • JaliliMaster
        Dec 07, 2014 @ 02:52:19

        Yes, I too believe that the majority of casting directors in Hollywood are ww. There was a time that whenever I watched a movie at home, I would always look at the credits for the name of the casting director. They were almost always women. Even when it isn’t explicitly stated who the casting director is, the name with the C.S.A post-nominal is almost always female. I suspect that they (the ww in HW) realised the influence they could subtly wield in terms of media portrayals, in that position. I doubt that it is a coincidence that despite the fact that women (whatever their race) are under-represented in that industry (in terms of crew members), they take up the overwhelming majority of casting director posts. Also, it is the production company or the studio that employs the casting director, so it is not as if someone can just wake up one day and decide to become one. The connections (ethnic – Jewish) with the male studio heads, helps these women get these positions.

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      • Evia
        Dec 07, 2014 @ 06:38:15

        A lot of AABW tend to assume that gender relations between nonblack men and nonblack women are as dysfunctional as what exists between AA males and women.

        Exactly, Khadija! This is another subtle area that is often hidden from typical AABW. Not to generalize here, but the gentle way that many non-AA men coddle and treat their women, the compromises they WILL make to satisfy that woman and the pleasure/joy they often derive from satisfying that woman in various ways would just blow many AAbw away. They cannot imagine men treating women in this manner.

        Satisfying a woman he cares about, making her smile gives many men their greatest PLEASURE. I’ve read where typical AA males consider that as a man being a p%&sy. LOL! Well, I’ve mostly mingled and mated with non-AA men who produced, protected, problem solved, etc. very well, and all of them must be p%&sies.

        This also means that a man is much more strongly attracted to a woman he thinks he CAN satisfy, so he doesn’t want an angry, argumentative SHEMALE. A man cannot feel like a real MAN with a shemale.That type of woman robs him of pleasure and peace of mind.

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      • Neecy
        Dec 08, 2014 @ 11:36:11

        @ KHADIJA

        EXACTLY. I remember someone posted a while back in one of my posts, the casting “call” for that show GIRLS on HBO which is written and produced by Lena Dunham. Very teling was the casting call and really clarified for me that this is most likley what happend across the board.

        The casting call was for a very highly attractive Black male to play the love interest of one of the Non Black women on the show and the other was for a OVERWEIGHT, FUNNY SASSY Black woman. LOL

        Very telling.

        And yes a lot of the casting decisions do go to gay White males and Jewish WW.

        UPDATE: Found the link to where you can see the casting call. Scroll down until you see it. i coulnd’t copy and paste it for some reason.

        http://www.racialicious.com/2012/04/19/dear-lena-dunham-i-exist/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed:+Racialicious+(Racialicious+-+the+intersection+of+race+and+pop+culture)

        If you scroll down you can

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    • Neecy
      Dec 08, 2014 @ 10:51:25

      HI JALIL,

      I have to agree with your current post and apologize for my tone as well on the previous post. I htink by the time you posted I was just so frustrated because I realized many had taken my post and thoughts on RP the wrong way.

      in actuality, you all are correct. i wasn’t talking RP from the standpoint of the traditional Black activits, and now I realize that i used the term pre-maturely before truly understanding its implications before supporting it.

      I agree that we have to get these hole drilling BW off TV. But I say GOOD LUCK! Because they are actually not the ones in power. In order to truly get them off and out of our visions, we’d have to first address the power source – NON BLACKS.

      Also, there is a huge market for these kinds of BW because they make $$$ for the entertainment and media industrues due to the GENERAL POPULATIONS support of these images as a source of entertainment.

      I remember having lunch with a Black female co-worker several years ago expressing how FRUSTRATED I was with these stupid shows that depicted BW as grotesque human beings. Then she simply laughed and looked around in the restaurant and said “yeah but they are the ones supporting it so what you gonna do?”. “They” meaning Non Blacks.

      And she was right. They enjoy seeing these images of BW because its pure entertainment for them. And bevause entertainment is about a bottom line, what ever brings in the $$$ for these entertainment entities is what will be pushed to the masses to keep feeding their walletts.

      That is why I am saying, instead of fighting and getting sweaty trying to defeat them (at least for now), we need to FIRST build our power structure before we challenge the powers that be and these hole drillers. Right now we got nothing – as they say.

      AND, frankly, what other images have BW really had to ascribe to? this goes back to me saying how Black women like us are just NOW starting to speak out against this. But what about all the decades and years that have gone by with us remianing silent. its not even like BW in general had any other options to look up to.

      I believe once we do create a space to develop a new culture for BW, many BW will jump on board or at least have a CHOICE and know they do not have to settle for being and acting tat way to get ahead in life. that they do not have to be caricatures for society’s entertainment purposes.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 08, 2014 @ 11:08:05

      Reagrding the power angle of WW. Yes i agree that Wm give it to them to a certain extent, but still at the end of the day WW are the most powerful women in the world. They give birth to the race/children that White men and people need to stay WHITE and in power.

      So Wm and WW’s power may not be in the same sector – with WM’s power being in controlling the infrstuctures in society, You best believe WW control the “social infrastructures” in society. And that is why most things CATER to them and thier beauty and womanhood among other things.

      And whether power is given to them or not, the fact remains they have it because they are from and CREATE the most powerful race of men on earth. They are thier mothers, sisters, daughters, and relatives. So in essence, my belief is that I don’t care where the power source comes from, t he fact is they have enough IMO to affect who and what images gets placed on television by sheer reality that they are related to and give BIRTH to the very men who give them power. But WW also give WM power, because without their WOMBS, there is no WHITE RACE – PERIOD.

      So in essence they both need each other to stay in power. I think WM understand this and know this and thus why they have been not only willing to cede some power to WW to keep them happy, but also willing to do what it takes to keep them happy to pro create with them and keep those “white babies” flowing.

      Also, by sheer reality that they are the children of powerful race of men, they have power to affect the bottom line in things like media. Its no secret that a lot of programming on TV is made to cater to WHITE WOMEN betwen the ges of 18-34. that is the biggest market. That is why shows like the Bachelor do so well and why we will never see a Bacelor pick a BW on TV. Because WW are the main watchers and supporters of these kinds of shows and will NOT be run over by images of equally attractive BW competing for the affections of desirable White males.

      Also, why do you think attarctive BM have no issues int he media nd entertainment. Because WW will support seeing images of attractive BM catering to them and in relationships. I’m sure if WM truly had it thier way, very few BM would be in any forms of media. Its like on that show with that BEAST named Lena Dunham, someone ahile back had posted a casting notice for the show called “girls” that she writes and produces. In the casting they were looking for a supremley attractive Black male to play the love interest of one of the Non BW on the show, and the other casting was for a “funny overweight sassy Black woman”. LOL Don’t tell me these women don’t have power!

      So. WW have power. And they certainly have a lot more than BW in many areas. They make waaay more on the $$$ than BW do. So for al intents purposes, BW should be aware that while WW may not have the power WM have, they have more power over US, which is the real thing we need to understand and acknowledge when it comes to the greater forces we are up against, which is not just “hole drilling” BW. Because those hole drilling BW have A LOT of powerful allies behind them pushing them and paying htem for being hole drillers.

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  15. JaliliMaster
    Dec 06, 2014 @ 22:29:00

    Evia said: “I’m not a binary thinker, so I know there can be many factors causing a situation–not just 1 or 2. In this situation, for ex., it’s NOT just those hole-drilling bw who are causing certain bw’s boats to sink. Plenty of bw are too BIG and that is something that bw CAN control. I know that’s touching the 3rd rail. I always get the most vicious hate mail that goes on for days when I mention bw’s weight on my Ezine. LOL But I take my granddaughter to the mall sometimes, and it’s really saying something when a bw my age has the slimmest figure at the mall compared to MOST of the bw there. And I’m talking about YOUNG bw. I could list a bunch of other things that render bw less competitive, but we’ve already been there and done that.”

    There are quite a few bw who are more comfortable believing that it is solely these blatant hole-drillers causing all of it, but they ignore the subtle and not so subtle traits that they possess that severely limits (and in some cases, almost completely eliminates) their chances or likelihood of being able to attract a CQLL man (as opposed to just any man, as I have seen some bw use the fact that they have had ‘dates’ (I’m using that word very loosely) in the past as the proof that it isn’t anything about them that might be contributing to it.

    Evia said: “………………….But I’d say that many more folks of every group would be much more accepting and have lots more RESPECT for more blacks and value the lives of blacks more if the bulk of us did things like behaved in a well-mannered way in public, didn’t engage in petty crimes, used good grammar, practiced more sexual discipline or used common sense about sex, studied and got good grades, saved and invested money, got married before having children, raised our children well, had and supported our own businesses, chastised our own, etc. These things would GREATLY help a lot of AAblacks these days to advance in various areas of life in this country, ……………..

    One can just print that out and hand it in to all these civil rights groups of today. Make them focus on encouraging bp to do all these things, all these black activitists, etc. If black folks just did all that you mentioned in this comment, and not even much else, in 5 – 10 years time, the condition of bp in America would be soooo much different. Instead, many of these so-called activist would rather focus, almost exclusively on trying to tackle the structural and systemic problems, but completely ignore the MANY things that black folks could be doing (and should start doing) individually and en masse, to really improve their situation.

    OLS said: “………….This is especially true of black people. Most blacks believe that we should not “judge” them by wp standards and really these supposed wp standards are anything that doesn’t allow, support and engage in the people who refuse to do anything or want to defend their own lifestyle.(Khadija pointed this out with the oow families…………

    The irony is, that many of these behaviours and norms that stupid black folks dismiss as wp standards/acting white, many dumb a*s wp (particularly amongst the younger, entitled generation), are starting to develop that same attitude. Many of the norms that historically, have built communities, societies, nations etc, are now being ignored and dismissed as unnecessary. These proper behaviour norms, as considered the ‘right’ way to do things wherever one goes, in whichever country. But when that is pointed out to these ‘hole-drilling’ (great term, whoever came up with it, (Evia?)) bp, they pretend that they don’t understand, as they are heavily invested in these positive behaviour norms being seen as a ‘white thing’.

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    • Evia
      Dec 07, 2014 @ 06:17:58

      @Jalilimaster, re:

      There are quite a few bw who are more comfortable believing that it is solely these blatant hole-drillers causing all of it, but they ignore the subtle and not so subtle traits that they possess that severely limits . . .

      Thank You!! This is a slam dunk! NUANCES. You have zeroed in on a VERY critical nuance. And here’s something else: SOME bw who criticize the hole-drillers and feel superior to bw hole-drillers and Blackistanis do bigtime hole-drilling in bw’s boats THEMSELVES. LOL! This is where a LOT of damage is done. They do not realize how damaged of OFF they themselves are.

      There are lots of subtle habits of mind, behaviors, manners, and ways of carrying themselves that bw display that are very off-putting to CQLL type men. For ex., that “Take me as I am!” attitude is an obvious mating killer, but NUMEROUS AAbw are not nearly demure enough. There is a spectrum of demure behaviors, but a demure woman is VERY appealing to a lot of men. Some of y’all think I’m a strong woman. I dunno, but I’m definitely a demure woman around virtually ALL men–even if I don’t like them at all. That gives me an advantage with them. Too many typical AAbw are way TOO aggressive and argumentative when talking around or with men. If there’s such a thing as winning the argument, I usually win the argument without raising my voice, but in most cases, winning the man or winning the person is much more important than winning the argument.

      Typical bw keep nothing back; they lay it all out in the opening moves. And I’ve heard men say they like that. Of course, they do because they then know how to maneuver with that woman. LOL Some of you may not know this, but most women (of a certain class) in other groups will quickly change their tone when they’re around men. They do NOT show all of their cards! This doesn’t mean that these women are “scared” or wimpy. Not saying this happens in all cases, but it usually means that she knows how to “stoop to conquer.” Conquerors rule, and the most skillful and longlasting conquerors don’t beat people to death with clubs. They manipulate. I know some you think that’s a “bad” word or is deceitful. Or a sin. LOL Okay.

      So many bw have not learned the VALUE of the art of subtlety.

      I’ve thought about writing about some of these nuances of how a LOT of bw drill holes in their OWN boats, but it’s way too much writing. And it then opens up a another big can of worms that can get ugly. Years ago, I mentioned to TWO offline bw acquaintances how they were drilling holes in their own mating WELL boats, and they became AGGRESSIVE. They’re the ones who asked me for advice, but couldn’t accept it when I gave it to them. But y’all, I can get aggressive too, when necessary. LOL I nipped that. They’re still in my acquaintanceship circle, and they’re still BIG, unpartnered, alone and now both of them are struggling with crippling illnesses and virtually all alone..

      A lot of what we talk about may be theory to some of you, but I’m old enough to have seen most of it come full circle. For ex., BOTH of these women are mammy, mules who have given the BEST fruits of their prime labor to MEN. One of them also gave a LOT to family members. One of them was considered so beautiful when she was younger until she could literally stop traffic in NYC on just about any day.But she was snookered by a FOINE man, and he wrung her out, took a big chunk of her retirement money, and is now with a younger woman. She’s become BIG to the point that she’s unrecognizable. And she’s now sick. I’m compassionate. I call her sometimes. She’s just a sad victim of her indoctrination. The AABW’s indoctrination KILLS. I tell ya–SOME folks in the black “community” need to be arrested for murder! I would LOVE it if some of these younger bw were to file a lawsuit against several members of their family who indoctrinated her. LOL! I know she wouldn’t win, but it would highlight this madness.

      Anyway, I know that stereotypical beauty is only a marginal asset. Its value depends on a few critical factors because it attracts lots of predators and typical women who have beauty cannot handle these predators. But so many young bw are always struggling to be beautiful. Trust me. It’s better to be average looking but with BRAINS.

      But even for those women online who’ve written to me for advice, the typical response is for the bw to become defensive and begin to whine about how they’re doing all they can. Typical AAbw need an intensive re-socialization/re-education program.

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  16. HomesteadGlamourGirl
    Dec 07, 2014 @ 06:45:55

    [i] some BW will accpet that reality that others do not have to EXTEND themselves to her and will treat her as a if she should even be glad she has a date or a male companion of interest interested in her.

    Some BW will over extend themsleves and do whatever it takes to get and find love. Even if that other person is unwilling to extend courtesies to her because he knows she is in a “dire” sitation than he.

    Some BW will continue to keep her standards high and realize that it may take much longer to find a man willing to extend the same courtesies to her that she is extending to him.

    Some BW will understand and come to terms with continuing on thier journey by themselves UNTIL they feel comfortable with a man who depsite his privledge and options, still has that human quality and plays by the rule of “do unto others as they do unto you” and will settle down then.

    These women MAY or may not find that person because as you stated “life isn’t fair” and no one owes it to anyone to be fair. I guess despite that, I play by a different standard and expect to be treated the way I treat others. And I am completely ok with being single and without companionship if that is not available to me. [/i]
    –Neecy

    I don’t think any of us is saying that, on a one-to-one basis, a bw must extend herself to get a wm while he just chills because he has some kind of upper hand.

    I think the point that is being made is that, generally, wm do not have to do anything differently, out of the way, or unfamiliar to get married. There is a pool of women ready and willing to marry them.

    Bw, on the other hand, generally, may HAVE to do things differently, out of the way, unfamiliar: Move. Intentionally shop/run errands where there are more eligible black men. Learn to see them differently, and thus change the “vibes” coming off of her when she is around them. This will make her visible and drastically increase her chances of marriage. For so many bw these are HUGE changes. Especially that last one, just learning to see them as men and not “white men” every time she is around them.

    One-to-one, however, is a different story. It is my firm belief that a man is much less likely to value a woman he didn’t have to work to get. So yes, an individual man interested in you must call, set up dates, give you flowers, be on time, be reliable, etc. etc. and PROVE that he values you.

    Thank you for writing this clarifying post. Because just like Evia, I was sho ’nuff confused by the last one. lol.

    Also I must compliment you on your ability to admit to your own errors or missteps. It is one of the traits of the successful. 🙂

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    • Evia
      Dec 07, 2014 @ 08:10:51

      @HomesteadGlamourGirl

      I totally agree.

      @ Neecy, when I read this excerpt yesterday, I felt you had inadvertently lapsed into binary thinking as in “Bw must bend over backwards and Wm does nothing,” when in actuality, the full spectrum of behaviors and responses are always there.

      It’s called the “Mating Dance” for a reason because the man and the woman must EACH take steps but due to the way society is configured, SOMETIMES the steps a bw takes with a wm differ from those that a ww would take and sometimes, of course, his steps in response will differ. Nuances, again, but I believe that many bw don’t know those dance steps or don’t know them well enough. Many AAbw have never had a chance to learn the steps properly because they’ve only mingled with damaged males.

      Another wrinkle here is that MANY or should I say MOST wm are still convinced that typical bw do NOT like them or harbor some degree of anger/animosity towards them.

      A recent experience of mine showed this perfectly. A couple of weekends ago, my toddler granddaughter stayed with me and Darren at the farm for a few days. So when I went to the gym for my workout, Darren had to come with me to be with her there. She’s very attached to me, so he just walked around with her in the wide open space near where I was doing my workout on the various machines. That way, she could see me.

      Well, I’ve mentioned I live in a solidly George Bush, kind of “old money” overwhelmingly white countryside type area. Usually, I’m the only black person at this gym that has a large 99.9% white membership. All of the whites there are polite to me, but they’re never warm. Usually, there’s barely any eye contact and only minimal interaction between me and any of them. HOWEVER, on this day that Darren was there with me, their response toward me was overwhelmingly different, like 180 degrees different towards me. They knew that the little brown-skinned toddler who was sitting on Darren’s lap or being catered to by him had to be our granddaughter (though she doesn’t look biracial), so as I encountered various wm there during that 45 minutes, they ALL made it a point to make eye contact with me, smiled, and a few of them actually struck up a friendly CHAT with me. LOL! In other words, they saw me as a bw who was not hostile towards white MEN. None of the men got fresh or anything; they were all gentlemen, but every wm there over 35 who I got within 5 feet of, made it a point to do something to draw my eyes to him, acknowledged me, and in a warm manner. They probably saw me as a once-in-a lifetime oddity. Just imagine–a bw who actually doesn’t hate ALL wm. LOL

      Another example: When one of the Micomsa women came to visit me at our farm in the spring, a wm acquaintance of Darren’s who’s old enough to be her father kept circling around her–even though his wife was nearby! He was chatty with Darren but I could tell he was interested in my bw guest. LOL! He probably felt that since I’m married to Darren, that she too would be interested in wm. Fast forward to several months, later, when we saw this man at an open-air concert. He made it a point to come over and chat a bit but kept looking around us, waiting–HOPING TO SEE HER! LOL!! This older guy is well-off financially. If he had been single and if she’d been interested, they could be married by now if she’d played her cards well.

      Remember, a LOT of the hole-drilling bw are out there right now in public sending the message to wm via TV and in other ways that AAbw, for sure, hate ALL of them. Cable TV has an enormous reach!

      Just pointing this out, so bw are going to need to do some things differently. I can’t blame wm for being careful about approaching certain bw.

      With these latest highly publicized police violence situations, I’ve noticed that certain prominent AAbm are shaping their responses very carefully or are silent. Kanye (considered the king of bm-ww IR), from what I’ve heard, has said little, but Sean Coombs couched his response in such a way to not distance ww. He said something to the effect that whites and blacks must come together. LOL! Okay.

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      • Olu
        Dec 07, 2014 @ 09:09:50

        “In other words, they saw me as a bw who was not hostile towards white MEN. None of the men got fresh or anything; they were all gentlemen, but every wm there over 35 who I got within 5 feet of, made it a point to do something to draw my eyes to him, acknowledged me, and in a warm manner. They probably saw me as a once-in-a lifetime oddity. Just imagine–a bw who actually doesn’t hate ALL wm. LOL”

        I co-sign this comment! In my program, I have made good friends with one of my WM classmates who goes out of his way to help me (like offering to drive me to stores since have a car, even before we really became good friends), and I suspect part of it is that I don’t seem to treat him differently (e.g., seem more reserved in interacting with him) because he is white. And in making friends with him, I notice that others seem a little more comfortable with me as well. Yet I suspect a few others (non-black people) still ascribe characteristics or beliefs to me that they think I should have as a BW. For example, at the beginning of my program I was telling another classmate, a WW, that I was going to swap out of a particular class to join another that seemed more suited to my interests and learning style. This WW went on to state something about the problem of having “white male” professors, as if I that was what I said and as if there are not a disproportionate amount of WW professors that one could take issue with. I had to tell her no and restate my reason for clarity, but I still wonder what in the world made her come out of left field with that. But yes, all in all, a BW who befriends WM seems like the type who can befriend anyone which is why I think people are generally more receptive to her.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 08, 2014 @ 12:01:04

      THANKS HOMESTEAD!!

      And yes the idea that you are speaking of is not BW jumping through hoops, but being creative and using what they have to get what they want. I see nothing wrong and in fact ENCOURAGE BW, to take on the cues that many other womn use to attract men.

      But, I am moreso speaking from a standpoint that too many BW truly beat themselves up when they have not accomplished dating IR as they feel they should. A lot of them may or may not be doing the right things. But for those who are and get discouraged and feel “what more can I do I’m doing all the right things” I am saying to them, you are right. There is only so much you can do. At the end of the day I still feel a man has to meet you half way.

      If a BW sends the signals and places herself in a position to be sought after, besides her literally asking the guy out, there is not much more she can do other than recognize that some men will not respond to her cues because THEY DO NOT WANT TO for whatever reasons, and that is not her problem.

      That she shoudl keep doing what she is doing and eventually she will meet a man who will meet her halfway.

      I am not syaing BW should not try to extend themselves to people. But i am saying if people do not respond base don their own negative perceptions of BW, then its nother problem and she should move on and not feel the need to over extend herself to these kinds of men or people who do not care about her as an individual but rather WHAT she is and what THAt represents to them.

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  17. HomesteadGlamourGirl
    Dec 07, 2014 @ 08:00:48

    lol. I meant “eligible WHITE (or other) men.” ah well. Of course a woman can move to where there are more eligible bm if that is a “must” for her.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 08, 2014 @ 12:02:54

      Girl this is the NEST where people are free to make spelling and grammatical errors. i mean if the Blogstress does it, why can’t her readers. LOL!

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  18. jazzyfae45
    Dec 07, 2014 @ 17:47:43

    Hey Neecy

    I got what you were saying in the last post and I also agree with this post wholeheartedly. The reasons why black women as a whole are in the position we are in and other people’s perceptions of us have been discussed on numerous sites. It has been broken down extensively and quite well I might add. I have enjoyed reading every last bit of it too. But the thing is if I’m doing all the right things as in: staying in shape, achieving my goals, I have the right credinentals for a job, being positive, being open to all races of men, being receptive to them, and yada yada yada and people whether it’s men or work or friends and they STILL aren’t willing to give me a chance THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM. Period. Their reasons for it is irrelevant to me at this point in my life. Bottom line I know what I have to offer and if they can’t or don’t want to see it then I’m not going to waste my time and energy. I can better spend that energy moving on to the next one. I’m focused on me and bettering myself.

    And for those hole drillers, ratchets, bad black women, ghetto black women, stereotypical acting black women, or whatever you want to call them make it harder for me but they won’t stop me or get in my way. And yes it does suck that it only black women that don’t really get the benefit of the doubt or get a chance to be seen as individuals but that’s the hand we’ve been dealt and we need to act accordingly.

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  19. neurochick
    Dec 08, 2014 @ 07:01:57

    What I see in the black community today is a LOT of immaturity.

    To me, having a child OOW is immature and illogical for the average BW. Have a child OOW and you’ll struggle FOREVER. So why do it? Immaturity, that’s why. I’ll say, “If I don’t meet a man worthy of me, I’m not having any children.” And I’ll get told, “Well what if you WANT a child, I’m not waiting for no man to have a baby.” What? That makes no sense, so because YOU want a child you’ll have one by whomever, because you want what you want when you want it? Immature.

    Also, I’ve here BW in their 30’s 40’s even 50’s say, “I want me a man who’s FINE.” Like the most important thing to them are looks. I’m sorry but that’s very immature. Once you get past the age of 16, looks should matter less, not more. If you marry looks, looks will be all you get.

    I understand Evia, she’s right. We live in a patriarchy and whether you like it or not, that’s the reality and it’s not going anywhere for a long time, so you might as well deal with it.

    @Evia Many AAbw have never had a chance to learn the steps properly because they’ve only mingled with damaged males.

    Totally right. Damaged men don’t think anything of a woman raising her voice, getting aggressive with someone in restaurant, in fact he might think it’s cute. People with sense look at that woman and think, “goodness, doesn’t she have an inside voice?” I once saw this in an Applebees, a BW with her daughter was yelling at the server, no matter how many plates he brought, she complained about all of them. A lot of the black people in the restaurant were looking at ther and some of them were nodding in agreement, like “you go girl!”

    I knew exactly what she was doing, it’s a scam, you complain and walk out without paying, which was what both of them did. The server came to us, still shaken and we were real nice to the poor guy and gave him a nice tip too. I told him, “don’t worry, that lady was just scamming you, trying to get a free meal.” So there you go.

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    • Rae
      Dec 08, 2014 @ 07:23:06

      You know I have noticed that about bw (in general black people). Black women place an insane amount of emphasis on looks when finding a man. The first thing a black woman says when asked about finding a quality man is looks. Other races of women first say ‘can he provide (money), his values, then looks. I believe the ‘standards of beauty’ makes black women causes bw to place a big amount of emphasis on looks especially if the black woman is dark skin and has non-Eurocentric features. Black men too. I remember Christelyn Karazin saying that black people are the most beauty conscious people in the world. She was correct about that. The vast majority of wealthy men here in NYC don’t have the best ‘looks’ but they sure can provide for their family. I’ve observed this with jewish wealthy families also. Other races of women place a high value on economics. Sadly, black women don’t. Take a look at what happened to Phaedra on The real housewives of Atlanta.

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      • neurochick
        Dec 08, 2014 @ 07:46:55

        @Rae:

        You’re so right about that. It’s all about looks for many BW and that’s why I call it immature. Teenage girls talk about how “hot” a guy is. That’s normal, but as you grow up, you learn that looks are a small part of a man. Can he provide? Is he kind? How does he treat others?

        Too many BW don’t even look at those things and they’ll laugh at you if you’re with a man they see as being “corny.” Even in the book, “Is Marriage for White People?” there was talk of BW wanting “swag.” I thought, what? Swag? That’s what I probably wanted when I was 15, but to hear a grown woman talking about swag?

        Maybe black people think that if they have a good looking partner, they’ll get more cash and prizes?

        You’re right about Jewish people though, to them it’s more important to find a man who can provide. They’ll look for a doctor, and if he’s attractive, that’s a plus, but it’s not the be all end all.

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    • Evia
      Dec 08, 2014 @ 08:21:38

      I’m going to mention this and then I’m going to take a break from this. But this relates to what Jalilimaster said above when she said:

      There are quite a few bw who are more comfortable believing that it is solely these blatant hole-drillers causing all of it, but they ignore the subtle and not so subtle traits that they possess that severely limits (and in some cases, almost completely eliminates) their chances or likelihood of being able to attract a CQLL man

      My youngest son is a young professional man, and a gentleman–even though I know some of y’all are wary of men who “claim” to be gentleman. LOL!

      Anyway, he’s of the age to be looking for a wife. Those are the VALUES he’s been raised with, and most men in his social circle (primarily young white professional males and African immigrants or the sons of African immigrants–marry) so they reinforce what he knows he’s supposed to do. He goes out a lot socially, and when he goes out now, he keeps his eye out for potential ‘wife material.” He dates sometimes, but keeps it light.

      He told me about a young AAbw who he met a couple of months ago and he was quite impressed with her. She was with a white girlfriend from her job when they met and he was with a mixed group of men. BTW, my son doesn’t discriminate at all against black women of any complexion or hairstyle. So, they chatted for a while and he liked her. He asked her out to dinner for the following weekend, and they went out. After that, during the next couple of weeks, they would text each other during the week and chat on the phone. She told him she was a good cook and invited him over for dinner. All went well. So he asked her out again.

      HOWEVER, this time when they went out, the place they went was a quite upscale but noisy place with a youthful, professional mixed crowd. There was a live performance.

      At a certain point, she turned around and rudely said to a white man who was with his friends at the next table to keep the BLEEPING noise down. The wm apologized but pointed out to her that everybody was noisy in there. My son said she then looked at him (my son) and gave him a smug smile. He said he couldn’t believe the language she’d used. He said he wanted to leave her sitting there but he’d paid a hefty amount for the tickets to get into this place. (My son has nice tastes–lol)

      About 10 minutes later, this woman did the SAME thing again!!! My son said he told her: “Leave them ALONE! What’s wrong with you?” She mumbled something to him. He said he was really furious because he knew that those guys wanted to tell her off, but were wary of him (because my son is a big guy.)

      Do y’all think that was the end of it? NO!

      About 15 minutes later, during a pause in the performance, she lashed out at these guys again and my son told her they were out of there!

      Well, he said she tried to “explain” on the way home. She also called the next day and texted to apologize to him but he said he was DONE with her. He said he knew he had dodged a bullet. And he had actually been planning to invite her to our holiday family gathering at his brother’s house.

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      • Neecy
        Dec 08, 2014 @ 12:08:30

        EVIA,

        This is so impotrant for BW to get. I have a girlfriend like this. She is very well put together and actually a very nice and attractive woman. But she turns men off with her attitude which is like the girl you described in this post.

        A lot of BW are simply just ABRASIVE. Let’s just say it for what it is ABRASIVE. That is NOT attractive to quality men who want women to have an OVERALL pleasant and easy going demeanor. Before the feminists come jumpin in on me, I am not saying that a woman cannot be a solid individual who cannot get upset ever. But the reality is, no one wants to be around an abrasive person all the time.

        Too many BW are. And yes this includes even the educated and attractive BW.

        I am not saying BW cannot get upset or defend themselves or have anger. But this abrasiveness that you described in VERY COMMON and needs to stop because even I cannot deal with it.

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        • neurochick
          Dec 08, 2014 @ 13:24:07

          @Neecy:

          There’s a difference between being upset and being abrasive.

          Everybody gets upset. Doesn’t mean you have to get abrasive.

          Evia’s son dodged a bullet. The lady he was dating did not know how to appropriately channel her anger. She could have leaned over and said to her date, “Gee, I can hear that man’s voice all the way over here. Oh well, some people are just like that,” and then laugh it off, because you’re in a club that’s already loud. See, she said how she felt, she explained herself, but she didn’t swear or get in a grown man’s face and she didn’t embarrass her date.

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    • lunanoire
      Dec 09, 2014 @ 20:53:42

      Neurochick,

      I have noticed some BW say things like this as well. My thoughts on the topic.

      1. People who are deficient expect their partner to be perfect to make up for their deficiencies. So, for many that includes a FINE partner.
      2. So, BW who feel “less than” in whatever way want a FINE partner to show to themselves and to others that they are valuable.
      3. Some BW have been ignored for years, so the lack of experience leads them to focus on the more external parts of a relationship.
      4. Many BW have low expectations of men, so they focus on short-term positives, like a FINE partner.

      I know a BW like this. She has little dating experience, and she kept saying that she did not understand why a particular WW actress divorced a royal WM to date (and marry? have a kid with?) a WM comedian/actor. I kept trying to explain that the has $$$ and she came from a wealthy family, so sticking with a royal for the $ is less of a factor. I also explained that just because someone is wealthy and FINE does not mean they’re the best partner. She would also look at people at the mall and wonder why they were together, as if adults remain in high school cliques or something and only socialize with those who look just like them. What was most telling was when I met a man she was dating and she asked if I thought he was cute. I thought it was a strange question, because as a friend, my job was to evaluate his character, not his physical attractiveness.

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  20. DiraD
    Dec 08, 2014 @ 10:54:17

    Hey Neecy,

    Sorry I missed the conversation; it was one of those crazy weekends. As you know from your previous post, I understood your intent. However, I’d like to add that I understand and appreciate the dissenting opinions. I am becoming so much more informed by just reading the comments here and at NYGF. College professors have nothing on the hostesses and commenters at BWE site.

    For BW in the audience who would like to learn more about comportment, manners and femininity, I would like to suggest the following blogs:

    http://socialgracesandsavoirfaire.blogspot.com/2013/08/use-your-words-abreviation-generation.html

    http://femmegirl2379.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2014-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2015-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=2

    http://www.theproperlady.com/

    http://theseductivewoman.blogspot.com/

    As well as the comments section of any of Khadija’s Finishing School Friday posts

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  21. neurochick
    Dec 08, 2014 @ 12:04:10

    @Evia:

    Well, he said she tried to “explain” on the way home. She also called the next day and texted to apologize to him but he said he was DONE with her. He said he knew he had dodged a bullet. And he had actually been planning to invite her to our holiday family gathering at his brother’s house.

    Yikes, your son dodged a huge bullet. That is why dating is important, what do they say? Dating means you get data. Watch how the person treats others. Also, and here’s what happened with your son’s date, watch what happens when they are in a situation they cannot control, a situation that bothers them. How do they handle it? She handled it badly, she showed your son that she’ll go to “nut city” when things aren’t to her liking. Somewhere she learned that it was okay to talk like that on a date. Crazy.

    When I was in college in the stone age, I went to an all woman’s college. Sure, most of us swore like sailors, in the dorms, but when we were out in public, especially at mixers and balls, everybody was on their best behavior, and these were WW and BW.

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  22. HomesteadGlamourGirl
    Dec 08, 2014 @ 13:13:09

    Wow Evia. Wow.
    One of my brothers was seeing a woman who yelled at him (in public!) When he was late coming to get her. Mind you he was late because he overslept because he had to work extra at his job. He got up and came because he wanted to see her.
    He told us about it (my mom and I), and we were DONE. DONE. He was ready to break up with her and we basically told him don’t come around here if you don’t! lol.

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  23. APA
    Dec 09, 2014 @ 10:43:14

    Evia,

    Yikes! The whole situation didn’t even make sense. They were at a club, which is supposed to be loud.

    Neurochick,

    You mentioned that it is important to date and observe your date in variety of settings, interacting with a variety of people. Some of my black female acquaintances believe in “hiding” their potential SOs. They will date a guy for months and tell the world that they are dating a mystery man, but refuse to bring him around their social circles until they feel that they are secure in their relationship because they don’t want anyone in their business.

    For example, one of my acquaintances was telling me how she secretly dated a guy in our social circle for a while, but the relationship ended on a bad note. Now, a gay acquaintance of mine attended the same school as said guy and told me that said guy was out of the closet in college, but was now appearing to be more secretive about his sexuality. According to my gay acquaintance, this is NOT uncommon behavior. I shared this bit of info with her, and she admitted that she had doubts about his sexuality. This same girl is now dating a guy that her parents believe may be gay, but she is chalking it up to the fact that her parents are upset that she is dating a white guy. Because of the tension, she limits the amount of time that her and SO spend with her family. In addition, she is weary about having any of her “friends” meet her current SO despite constantly talking about how she thinks he is the one and officially confirming the relationship on FB.

    I understand the importance of not wanting too many people in your ear regarding a budding relationship. However, there is nothing wrong with bringing a “friend” around trusted members of your social circle/family to hang out in order to see how an individual vibes with people who play a significant role in your life especially if you know your intuition is off. In fact, it is something that I do when I am considering pursuing a relationship with a guy because I believe it’s good to know early in the relationship how well an individual will fit into your current life/lifestyle. In addition, I’ve often received good tidbits of info on potential boyfriends because someone in my social circle recognized and knew who I was “hanging out” with at the time. Of course, I always take these reports with a grain of salt, but in hindsight, most this info has been proven accurate as well as saved me a lot of headaches.

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  24. APA
    Dec 09, 2014 @ 10:55:09

    On another note, I agree that respectability politics is a good thing. If by respectability politics, you mean presenting yourself in the best light possible at all times in order to combat negative stereotypes associated with your racial/ethnic group.

    For a long time, I resented the onus placed on a lot of black people to function as representatives of their race because I wanted to live my life and be responsible for my personal shortcomings and not the shortcomings of an entire race of people who I have no control over. However, like a lot of commenters have I mentioned, I have come to terms with the fact that life is not fair, and I understand that I can no longer be naive and assume that I have the same leeway as other non-blacks in regards to behavior and life choices. It is in my best interest to be well-versed in respectability politics if I want to win in life.

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    • Khadija Nassif
      Dec 09, 2014 @ 11:16:23

      APA,

      You said (I’ve emphasized certain parts in bold):

      “On another note, I agree that respectability politics is a good thing. If by respectability politics, you mean presenting yourself in the best light possible at all times in order to combat negative stereotypes associated with your racial/ethnic group.”

      I don’t understand why so many (mostly younger) Blacks keep imposing THIS interpretation on respectable, sane, civilized behavior.

      I don’t present myself in the best light possible in order to combat negative stereotypes about my racial/ethnic group.

      I present myself in the best light possible because THIS is what works best (and feels most comfortable) for ME. I carry myself as a respectable, sane, civlized person because I AM a respectable, sane, civlized person. And I LIKE and ENJOY being a respectable, sane, civlized person.

      Behaving in a respectable, sane, civlized manner isn’t some kind of burden for me. It’s not a sacrifice for me. Which is what new school Blacks make it sound like when they characterize respectable, sane, and civilized behavior as some sort of appeasement of White people. I really don’t get that false connection so many (mostly younger) Western Blacks make between respectable, sane, and civilized behavior and White people and appeasing White people.

      Black folks who do that make it sound as if Blacks are inherently depraved savages. Because if somebody perceives respectable behavior as automatically equalling some sort of concession to Whites, or as a burden (much less a heavy, unbearable burden) . . . what does that perception say about that person’s natural inclinations?

      Behaving in a respectable, sane, civlized manner happens to have positive side effects. Such as not confirming ugly stereotypes. Such as the fact that respectable, sane, civlized behaviors and lifestyle choices tend to lead to better outcomes in life. But those are positive side effects. I’m a respectable, sane, civilized person because I enjoy being a respectable, sane, civilized person.

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  25. APA
    Dec 09, 2014 @ 12:10:33

    Khadija,

    I behave myself because I also believe in behaving for the sake of behaving. However, many comments have centered around “hole drillers” and the implications that this has for other “normal” black people. If black folks became model minorities, tomorrow I wouldn’t start acting crazy. Please don’t interpret my post in that way. I have home training and believe in acting like I have home training.

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  26. Lynn
    Dec 10, 2014 @ 08:42:17

    This post has been really enlightening. Thank you Evia and Khadija for your comments. Like most of the BWE women here, I also carry myself as a respectable person. I was raised in a mixed racial environment, hence it never occurred to me to behave otherwise. That is, until I went to high school and mingled with large number of Blacks. Back in that time (late 80’s early 90’s) the sheer numbers of the ABC crew really started to take over the numbers of old school Blacks. So for a few years I caved in and fell into the trap of ABC behavior though it was not as deviant as it is today. These days, the way Black people carry on is ridiculous!

    I do want to point out that in order to ‘fly under the radar’ of most Black folk, it’s important to ‘code switch’ as Evia put it. I work in a diverse environment where the Blacks tend to segregate and they know I have a White boyfriend. The backlash has been considerable, but the way I deal with it is to let it roll off my back and take on SOME ABC mannerisms, at least the ones that I can stand to emulate. It’s really not in my nature to act this way, but it’s just one of my many ‘faces’ as Evia coined the term, I use to make my work life smoother. Black people tend to automatically think that if your date IR you see yourself as some special snowflake or as better than other Black people. It’s really telling on their own self-esteem, but the reality is the collective self-esteem of Black folk is in the toilet.

    Most of the Black people I associate with these days are at work. As we move forward and progress in our lives, we will still associate with SOME Black people. Since the bulk of them are ABC’s, we will still associate with some deviant folk. ABC’s love to think that every Black person is just like them, aspires to do/have the same things, outlooks in life. It causes a lot of anxiety when they see progressive Black women succeeding in mainstream life by adopting the common sense values and behaviors that are fairly common among all other groups of people. To be blunt, I attempt to humor them in small ways, while making allies with influential WM as a precaution to any career sabotage ABC’s may attempt. This strategy has caused my career to make huge advances in the last few years.

    An interesting story happened to me over Thanksgiving. I visited my mom for the first time in years. We went out shopping. As a young WM was ringing up our purchases I smiled and chatted with him. Basic stuff, nothing more that light-hearted chatter. This is second nature to me now because experience has shown me this tends to make social transactions smoother, yields better service, and I’ve even experienced ‘special discounts’ or hookups that I know aren’t given to everyone. My mom, who I haven’t spent a huge amount of time with over the past few years kept giving me odd looks. As soon as we got the parking lot my mom accused me of ‘Flirting with that WM!’ I was so shocked I was speechless for a minute. Then I remembered my mom is still indoctrinated and is part the ABC crew herself. BW engaging in casual friendly behavior, especially with other races is foreign to her. Mingling and being at ease in a variety of settings and venues is something she has never accomplished even though we grew up in a diverse environment. My mom is who she is and this was a powerful reminder to me how important it is to limit my time and interactions to her. She knows nothing of my life but the basics and is always complaining about it. But she cannot help me and actually would be a huge hindrance for me and my future goals.

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    • neurochick
      Dec 11, 2014 @ 07:41:23

      An interesting story happened to me over Thanksgiving. I visited my mom for the first time in years. We went out shopping. As a young WM was ringing up our purchases I smiled and chatted with him. Basic stuff, nothing more that light-hearted chatter. This is second nature to me now because experience has shown me this tends to make social transactions smoother, yields better service, and I’ve even experienced ‘special discounts’ or hookups that I know aren’t given to everyone. My mom, who I haven’t spent a huge amount of time with over the past few years kept giving me odd looks. As soon as we got the parking lot my mom accused me of ‘Flirting with that WM!’ I was so shocked I was speechless for a minute. Then I remembered my mom is still indoctrinated and is part the ABC crew herself. BW engaging in casual friendly behavior, especially with other races is foreign to her. Mingling and being at ease in a variety of settings and venues is something she has never accomplished even though we grew up in a diverse environment. My mom is who she is and this was a powerful reminder to me how important it is to limit my time and interactions to her. She knows nothing of my life but the basics and is always complaining about it. But she cannot help me and actually would be a huge hindrance for me and my future goals.

      Wow, I feel for you there Lynn. My mother would have probably thought the WM was adorable. The one thing my mom can’t stand are SMB (sorry black men). And according to her, most of the young ones ARE sorry. My mom’s in her 80’s and grew up in the segregated South.

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    • Meena
      Dec 11, 2014 @ 17:33:11

      I know exactly what you are talking about. I learned very early on my mother would ruin my chances of marrying up, so I limit my time with her in social settings when possible.

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  27. Lynn
    Dec 10, 2014 @ 11:37:56

    To clarify my point earlier about SOME ABC mannerisms: I’m careful to act a certain ABC when in the company of the Black coworkers; never in mixed environments or when interacting with nonBlacks. It subtly reassures them I still consider myself part of the rank and file ABC crowd.

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  28. Seprent Dove
    Dec 10, 2014 @ 15:15:34

    A page lurker here. Thank you for your posts. Glad to see that you are back. Your blog posts and the comments from other bloggers are very enriching. You are helping black women the world over. I am not an American citizen or resident. Nevertheless, your message resounds with me as the BC community in my home country faces a similar plight (increasing OOW rates, increasing crime rates, consumerism, colorism, etc.). I consider myself progressive and work to improve my lot in life and to someday achieve Khadija Nassif’s “flawlessness”. As all of you have said, in one way or another, being “respectable” is simply common sense and key if you want to achieve individual success. Thanks again!

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  29. Khadija Nassif
    Dec 10, 2014 @ 16:28:06

    Neecy,

    Before I say anything else, let me thank you for hosting this conversation. I believe that being able to talk this issue through has helped a lot of folks (myself included) clarify their thoughts about all of this.

    Lynn,

    You’re welcome!

    Your comment has stirred up lots of memories and thoughts for me. 🙂

    First, it’s it pitiful that one has to do all that “code switching” just to go unharrassed among other AA Blacks at work. Because the real deal is that any AA woman who doesn’t display at least a few ABC mannerisms in front of other AA employees will be the target of open and active sabotage by those other AA Black employees. It’s ironic—the vast majority of AAs at any job won’t cooperate with each other to advance each other as a group (the way non-AA others do). But they will get together to cooperate in dogging out another AA Black coworker who doesn’t conform to their expectations of “Blackness.”

    Second, isn’t it so very interesting that—no offense intended—so many AA women like your mother feel obligated to carry the torch for ongoing hostility to Whites? Especially given that AA Black males made a point of dropping that unfriendly-bordering-on-openly-hostile-to-Whites behavior around Whites DECADES ago.

    As a teenager, I recall hearing AA negro males at my magnet high school making a point of openly saying that they liked ALL girls, irrespective of race. I don’t remember them ever appearing to feel any need to show hostility to White folks. And other AA Blacks didn’t try to check them about their lack of hostility to Whites in general (and White girls in particular). THAT burden of being aloof somehow was reserved for AA girls and women. And AA girls and women were the only ones being “policed” by other AA Blacks over any perceived lack of displayed hostility toward Whites.

    It all reminds me of a post by Halima:

    http://dateawhiteguy.blogspot.com/2009/07/give-it-up-or-embrace-fruits-thereof.html

    Third, I’m appalled to see how some very peculiar notions have taken root among so many modern day Western Blacks. And I have to specify Western Blacks, because I’ve never seen African Blacks scorn respectable behavior. Maybe there are some of them doing that. I’ve just never seen or heard any African coworker or acquaintance scorn respectable behavior. Just sayin.’

    Fourth, I’m amazed at how so many new school AA women have kept all these very strange in the modern context notions going. Let me be more specific about what I mean. It amazes me to see and hear so many young AA women still talking this blanket hostility to Whites talk in the modern context. I was a teenager in the 1980s. I’ve seen how much things have changed socially. I grew up in segregated Chicago, and spent my teenage years and young adulthood in the U.S. Midwest. I also have some cousins who are straight-up White-people-worshipping oreos for real.

    When I was in high school, college and law school, it really didn’t matter how open and friendly you were as an AA girl or young woman. The vast majority of Whites in the Midwest would NOT respond appropriately. Because the vast majority of them were NOT open to befriending ANY AA Black person, no matter how friendly you were to them or around them. And the racist Whites vastly outnumbered the non-racist Whites. So it took a LOT of courage for a non-racist White person to genuinely befriend an AA person in the Midwest (especially in segregated Chicago). Be “befriend” I mean any relationship or interaction that goes deeper than surface acquaintances (beyond saying “Hi” and “Bye”).

    Most people of all races are cowards. Why would Whites go through all those extra changes when there are plenty of their own people to socialize with, date, and marry?

    So, during those 2 decades, I heard plenty of anguished tales from those relatives who were the parents of my White-people-worshipping oreo cousins who STILL literally had doors slammed in their faces when they tried to attend White parties that the handful of non-racist White kids at their high school had invited them to.

    And I saw things for myself during high school, college and law school: American White boys/men would smile, look at, and admire the beauty of AA Black girls, but only about 5% of them were brave enough to approach an AA Black girl*. And of those American White boys/men who were brave enough to approach an AA Black girl and ask her out, only about 2% of those males were bold enough to take that Black girl home to their parents and family. Things are very different now.

    [*Also factor in the non-friendly, closed, bordering-on-hostile behaviors that most AABW are socialized to engage in regarding WM.]

    I don’t know what was happening on the east or west coast in the 1980s or 1990s. I’m talking about what was going on in Chicago, other areas in the Midwest and the rest of “Heartland America” (places outside of parts of L.A. and parts of NYC) at that time (I had female AA friends who went to various colleges throughout the country).

    Another difference: When I was in college, law school, and during much of my 30s, non-racist/non-hostile White Americans were generally as clueless and oblivious to racism as racist/hostile Whites. Unless there was a cross burning somewhere—with a noose attached to it—the vast majority of non-racist/non-hostile White Americans never really picked up on or noticed racism unless and until they were prompted by Black folks’ outcry. And even then, most of them were so insensitive that they just couldn’t perceive or comprehend that anything was amiss unless and until there was a cross burning.

    By contrast, I’ve seen young (30 and under) non-racist White prosecutors—without there having been any complaints or outcry or prompting from any Blacks in their social circle—publicly lash out and go ALL the way off on other Whites who said something they perceived as racist in their presence. I’ve also watched groups of younger (30 and under) non-racist White prosecutors—again, without prompting by any Black person—denigrate other White coworkers that they perceive as being racist.

    I’m saying all of this to say that it’s a TRAVESTY to see so many young AA Black women needlessly cut their own throats and squander the MUCH more open social networking, dating, and marriage opportunities that literally did NOT exist in most areas of the U.S. when I was their age (at least not that I or any other AA girls/young women I knew who went to college throughout the country at that time were aware of).

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  30. Khadija Nassif
    Dec 10, 2014 @ 16:47:13

    Geez, I hadn’t meant for my earlier comment to be THAT long—LOL! Please excuse me, y’all.

    One thing I forgot to mention about the AA negro males at my magnet high school and college who made a point of openly saying that they liked ALL girls, irrespective of race.

    In terms of the ones I went to school with, even AFTER some of these negro males “who love ALL girls” (not infrequently) got accused of rape by the White girls they chased after and sexed—and/or physically attacked by these White girls’ fathers and brothers—other AA Blacks somehow never scolded or policed them for their lack of hostility to Whites or for their openness to White girls. In those instances, somehow ALL Black folks’ outrage became focused on the Cry Rape After She Got Caught Sexing A Negro Male White girl or her racist White kinsmen. There was NO What Did YOU Do To Get Yourself Caught Up?” victim-analysis such as what AAs routinely do whenever something negative happens to AA women and girls.

    Even after these AA negro males got burned by White girls, they were NOT expected to carry a torch of hostility toward Whites. These negro males were NOT expected to be or demonstrate hostility toward Whites. That duty was somehow reserved for AA girls.

    It’s a new day. There’s no self-interested reason for any AA woman to be engaging in Sista Soldiering-style blanket hostility to Whites or other nonblacks. Or for harboring the sorts of assumptions that go along with that behavior. All you do when you do that is erase the “wiggle room” (as Evia calls it) that you might need later on down the road.

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  31. IamKM
    Dec 10, 2014 @ 17:20:20

    I’ve been silently lurking and reading this discussion. A very good discussion, I learned from reading the responses and I have to say, BW in my age group (18-34) need to stop cutting off their noses to spite their face. I see it now when I date, when I go to work, go to workout, just live my life, how I’m now expected to not just act a fool but to approve of others acting the fool because I’m a BW. No one expects BM to act the fool anymore, too many BW now do that for them.

    I’m also glad that this conversation went on here instead of other places, very, very glad.

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  32. Khadija Nassif
    Dec 11, 2014 @ 06:18:27

    For the young-uns in the audience, here are a couple of links to the sorts of things that would happen to Black folks who wandered into or around certain neighborhoods in 1980s America—these 2 incidents are from 1980s New York City (emphasis added in bold):

    “Yusef Hawkins (also spelled as Yusuf Hawkins, March 19, 1973 – August 23, 1989) was a 16-year-old African-American who was shot to death on August 23, 1989 in Bensonhurst, a predominantly Italian-American working-class neighborhood in the New York City borough of Brooklyn. Hawkins and three friends were attacked by a crowd of 10 to 30 white youths, with at least seven of them wielding baseball bats. One, armed with a handgun, shot Hawkins twice in the chest, killing him.[1][2]

    Hawkins had gone to Bensonhurst that night with three friends to inquire about a used 1982 Pontiac automobile that was for sale. The group’s attackers had been lying in wait for either African-American or Latino youths they believed were dating a neighborhood girl.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Yusef_Hawkins

    “One African-American man was killed and another was beaten in Howard Beach, Queens, New York, in a racially charged incident in December 1986 that heightened racial tensions in New York City.

    The dead man was 23-year-old Michael Griffith, who was born on March 2, 1963 in Trinidad and lived in Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brooklyn. He was killed after being hit by a car on December 20, 1986 as he was chased onto a highway by a mob of white youths who had beaten him and his friends. Griffith’s death was the second in a string of three infamous racially-motivated killings of blacks by white mobs in New York City in the 1980s. The other victims were Willie Turks in 1982 and Yusuf Hawkins in 1989.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Beach_racial_incident

    This incident is from 1997 Chicago:

    “For the last few days, a parade of politicians and preachers have made their way to the bedside of a comatose 13-year-old black boy to pray for his recovery and for the city’s soul.

    In a storm of fists and feet, the boy, Lenard Clark, was beaten into a coma by a pack of white teen-agers as he rode his bicycle last Friday on the edge of Bridgeport, a neighborhood known here for producing mayors and racial hostility. According to the police, the teen-agers later bragged about keeping blacks out of the neighborhood.

    These are tense times in Chicago. The beating of Lenard came on the heels of another ugly but less serious racial incident two weeks earlier. During a high school basketball game, dozens of students from a predominately white, Catholic boys school taunted players from a largely black school with chants of ”Buckwheat.””

    http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/27/us/chicago-neighborhood-reveals-an-ugly-side.html

    THIS was the atmosphere in which teenage and older AA negro males were making a point of publicly saying that they like ALL girls, irrespective of race.

    Don’t let anybody try to fool you into thinking that New York City, Boston, Chicago, New Jersey or any other major Northern city was oh-so-different from the dangers of backwoods Alabama in those days. THESE were the known risks that AA negro males were willing to take in order to befriend, chase after, date and sex White girls. Furthermore, AA negro males knowingly took these risks in pursuit of White vaginas without any criticism whatsoever from other AAs after they were beaten and/or killed during their pursuit of White vaginas.

    I’m telling y’all younger readers this so you can put it in perspective. AA negro males dropped that Self-Othering Behavior/Acting Unfriendly & Strange Around White People shtick DECADES ago.

    AA negro males have also always been willing and eager to literally risk their lives in order to be friendly to White girls and WW.

    AA negro males have also always been willing and eager to behave in ways that White girls and WW found pleasing.

    So, why in the world in 2014 (going on 2015) would YOU as an AA woman feel the need to act strange, engage in self-othering behaviors, and do other weird things in order to feel like you aren’t making some [imagined] “concession” to White people?

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    • Rae
      Dec 11, 2014 @ 06:32:42

      This is something I have quietly noticed about the difference between black men and women. Black women go on and on about how they only want black men. Black men do NOT SAY THE SAME THING. There’s a blog called blackwomenconfessions.tumblr.com Look at the confessions from the youngblack teen girls SMH The obsession with showing their loyalty to bm is sad.

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      • Neecy
        Dec 11, 2014 @ 07:57:38

        RAE,

        I went to that link and yes it was a very disheartening, readin gthe thoughts of these yougn BW.

        But I read between the lines. I see a lot of FEAR. Deep down a lot of them are questioning the right htings, but can’t figure out the best route. OS they fall back to the lesser of evils (in their mind) which is Black loyalty.

        Its scarey so many young BW are in this situation. But i am optomistic that if we BWE women do our part, things will change rapidly.

        All they need is a solid and SUPPORTIVE community to fall back on to release thier fears. Right now they do not have that. They don’t have it in Black comm and in some cases neither greater society who is busy looking out for thier own women and girls.

        So this is where women like me want to fill that void. I want to do bigger things than blog. And I will.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 11, 2014 @ 07:28:00

      Khadija,

      This post is ON POINT.

      But I am wondering if its so much easier for BM still extend themselves in spite of the dangers they’ve had in trying to befriend and date White girls, as simly being that from the get go BM have an abundance of support and love from their communities. They are born and raised to feel as though they have a right ot anything they want and to go after it.

      Let’s take example a kid from a supportive and loving family and one from a non supportive, abusivefamily. Which kid will most likely feel the confidence to go out and take risks for themselves vs. the other who will be afraid and will most likely stay wallowing in dysfunction and around dysfunctional people because they have never been loved and given support to go out and seek life for themsleves on their own?

      People who are supported and receive unconditional love will always have less fears in taking risks. That is because when those risks do not always work out, they have a family, a community etc. to fall back on and welcome them with open arms and even FIGHT FOR THEM in need be.

      Back women and girls do not have such a thing. thus why they are more afraid of taking the risks that will aleinate them from family, friends and community. Deep down they know the Black community hates them and even Black men, but also they feel stifled when they see how invisible they are in the world and society or when they see the barrage of racism BW experience in society. They feel STUCK. And the “lesser of evils” (TO THEM) is sticking with what they know best – Black men and Black people.

      Although, that really isn’t the lesser of evils, but we are enlightened and they are not enlightened to understand why remaining loyal to the Black race and community and men is more harmful to them than extending herself out to the global community and just living for herself.

      So its just not as easy for Black women and girls to do what BM and boys have been doing, without recognizing that most likely in order to do so, she has to accep that divesting from family and comminuty in many cases is the only way she can do this without being guilted and shamed.

      Black women and girls are not raised and given the same support and leeway. This makes it a lot more difficult to be open to others and such when your family and greater community will not support you in the event something happens and will blame you for anything negative that has come from extending yourself to Whites and dating IR.

      Example, say a relationship goes bad with a BM. We see constantly how WW use BM for thier money and status or simply how those BM you described in our post were killed and beaten for trying to date WW. The Black community comes behind these men and fights for thier causes when injustices are done against them EVEN when those injustices were the result of them trying to date or be with WW. No matter how much certain BW feel neglected and pushed aside by Non BW that BM choose over them, they still support these Negroes by all means necessary and will stand up for them even when the Non black women mistreat and use them.

      Yet will that same support happen for a young Black women GOD forbid she end up in bad relationship, or hurt (emotionally or even physcially)? Young BW are in between a rock and hard place because they are still greatly under the influence (and sometimes the ROOF) of Black family members who are already making it known to them that any sort of deviation from Black men or Black people or Black “things” makes her “weird” or they guilt and shame her.

      So i am not so sure that its just as easy for young BW to do what young BM do bevause BM have always had the foundation and strong support of their families nad communities no matter what they do. BW don’t. And that mkaes it much harder.

      I’m actually going to say this – I believe the Black community HATES Black women. And that is why BW are and will be taken to task by family members and greater Black community for trying to do the things Black boys do (and receive support).

      The only way Black girls can do this successfully, is they are going to have to in often times completely DIVEST from the Black community and in some cases their families.

      BM do not have to do this. they can bring their White partners in the Black community, families and even Black events and both of them will be embraced. Not the same for Black girls.

      in essence, our young girls are literally stuck between a rock and hard place and I can understand why.

      This is why its imperative for BWE women to formulate a culture so that these girls have that support and love in a safe community and environment, when they come under fire from everyone for just living their lives.

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      • Lynn
        Dec 11, 2014 @ 07:42:34

        I’m in 100% agreement Neecy that the BC HATES BW/BGs. There is no other explanation for the enjoyment Black people show when BW/BGs experience setbacks in life and/or maimed and killed. I was one BW who had to DIVEST from 90% of my own family to progress in life. All the above that you outlined is true in my experience.

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        • Neecy
          Dec 11, 2014 @ 07:50:04

          Yes that is the bottom line. The Black community HATES its women and girls and will never let or allow BW to make life choices based on her own individual wants and needs WITHOUT degrading her, humiliating her, shaming her and guilting her. That is not so easy for some BW nad girls to overcome. Especiaslly when they see in outside society they are not loved nad embraced either. So BW choose what they feel to be the lesser of both evils.

          BW and girls who want to just live have to make a very hard choice divest completely from the Black community (while being targeted and being harrassed for doing so) and divest from a lot of ignorant family memebers (who will target, harrass, guilt and shame).

          We gotta be a lot easier on our sisters in understanding why they do the things they do like self sabotage. Because they are under fire from family, friends and a greater and powerful community.

          Its just not that simple. BM have a complete different experience than BW. Even in racist situations, BW and BM have different experiences. BM are supported and everyone wnats to come to their defense even when they are not the “perfect victims”.

          BW have to alway sbe the “perfect victim” to get any kind of empathy – and even then its small. But let a BW not be the perfect victims and everyone will come up with all kinds of reasons she was “responsible” for her own suffering.

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      • neurochick
        Dec 11, 2014 @ 07:56:13

        My feeling is that the BC is still living in the Stone Age, where women were seen as property, chattel, to be bought and sold.

        The BC doesn’t see its women as people, we are denied personhood in the BC, that’s where the hatred comes from. You can hate a person only if you don’t see them as a person. To see women as people with our own opinions, desires, feelings is a very progressive stance and many in the BC just aren’t there.

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        • Neecy
          Dec 11, 2014 @ 08:08:28

          EXACTLY NEURO!

          The reason its so easy for Black community to fight for nad support BM (even when its not helping Black people, BW or the Black community and ONLY HIMSELF) is because BM are valued as HUMAN BEINGS in thier Blakc community.

          As you said, BW are not seen as whole beings even in thier own communities. If they were, the same support nad love to go out and live life would e extended.

          The only place a BW is a MULE is in her community.

          But a lot of young BW can’t make the moves we would like them to make, when they are still greatly under the influence of ignorant mothers, fathers, family and community that discourages tem in all ways.

          I believe more BW and girls will divest, but only when they see they have a solid supportive community behind them to fall back on – and that is where we as Progressive BW need to come in and let htem know, YOU ARE SAFE to be you and do you and you have our supoprt.

          There needs to be a new culture for BW to be able to cling onto wothout feeling that they are stuck. Only untl then will we see more nad more BW doing a mass exodus from Black community and Black group think.

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  33. Khadija Nassif
    Dec 11, 2014 @ 11:17:09

    With all due respect, I feel that a lot of y’all are drawing the WRONG conclusions from what I’ve been (unsuccessfully) trying to express. Let me try this again:

    Modern-day AA women and girls (who have their heads on right) are NOT “stuck between a rock and a hard place.” Instead, you have MORE opportunities than EVER existed before for AA women and girls. Especially those of you who are still in the prime of youth—when your “woman card” has the most market value. If you choose to squander the opportunities you have in this day and age, that’s on YOU and YOU ALONE as far as I’m concerned.

    If you’re trying to pretend that your social opportunities today are like the way such things were 30-35 years ago (as an excuse for not seeking abundant life in the outer world), that’s on you and you alone. I was there before. Things have changed. Things are significantly different.

    Any AA woman who waits until there’s any sort “a solid and SUPPORTIVE community to fall back on” before she seeks abundant life might as well curl and die right now.

    Because there will never be any “solid and SUPPORTIVE community” among any sub-set or sub-faction of AA Blacks. Including among the BWE readership. And y’all know that. Because the bulk of YOU aren’t giving “solid” support to BWE activists and readers who have businesses and products for sale. Stop tripping. Evia already (correctly) called a lot of y’all out about that. Personally, I ain’t mad about it (I know how my own people “do”); I just don’t like dishonesty.

    That notion of AA women and girls waiting for “a solid and SUPPORTIVE community” before they do X,Y, Z is just another excuse for folks’ ongoing refusal to take advantage of the opportunities that didn’t exist during my youth. I’m sorry, I can’t let y’all slide with that excuse.

    I didn’t realize it during high school, college and law school, but there were nuances to those racial beatings of AA negro males. The AA collective likes to characterize those attacks as White hatred against ALL Blacks. I’ve come to realize that this was actually about gendered sexual competition between males. And about White male tribal protection of their tribe’s females from outsiders.

    To be blunt: WM and White boys didn’t want AA negro males sniffing around their sisters’ and daughters’ vaginas. BM always describe their actions and issues as being about “civil rights and such (and this is the story BM sell to BW), but it’s always been about BM wanting access to White vaginas.

    Males tend to not have any illusions about other males’ real agendas. The same way women aren’t fooled by other women’s agendas. So WM and White boys were never fooled by AA negro males’ “civil rights” talk. They knew the real deal–and knew BM’s real motivations for trying to socialize with Whites–from jump street.
    I didn’t realize it at the time, but these racist beatings and attacks were mostly a gendered war between AA negro males trying to access White vaginas and WM trying to protect the women in their group from that. Because another harsh reality is that AA negro males have a widely observed and known pattern of paternal abandonment of the children they sire, along with a host of other sub-par paternal deficits.

    This battle between AA negro males and WM has nothing to do with AA women. AA women don’t have a horse in that particular race, and don’t have a dog in that particular fight. Most AA women and girls didn’t realize this nuance back in the day. Because this was sold to us as blind attacks on ALL Black folks (who were supposedly all in it together on the same team), not a gendered sexual competition between males.

    My point is that since AA negro males weren’t too proud to make all sorts of behavioral concessions to White people (including risking death) to chase and please White girls, why are YOU worried about feeling like you’re making concessions [to White people] if you carry yourself in a respectable way?

    Most AA women and girls in my age group fell for the okey-doke. There’s no reason for you young-uns to fall for the same okey-doke. There is no “team.” There is no “us.” By now, the so-called Black community has made it perfectly plain that they will never support you. BM have made it perfectly plain that they will never support you. Each AA woman and girl has to go her own way. And stop waiting for anybody else to actively support you.

    No, it’s not “fair.” Life is not fair. And yes, nonblack women have it much easier because they have active support from the men in their group PLUS active support from BM.

    It is what it is. Circumstances and opportunities for AA women are better now than they’ve ever been before in the U.S. If you fail to take advantage of these opportunities–because you’re waiting on support that in your heart you know will never come from any large group of Blacks (including from the audience of BWE readers)–that’s on you, and you alone.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 11, 2014 @ 11:45:05

      Khadija,

      All due respect I and I am sure others are very clear on what you were saying. In fact, you’re already preaching to the choir here.

      This has been the foundation if my blog , to inform progressive BW they have the right and SHOULD live their lives based on PROGRESSING. Meaning, no longer living by and playing by the rules of atypical black groupthink. To move into the global arena and make the best of her life.

      The response was in relation to comparing BM who freely and openly have chosen to do just that AND why I observe it’s much easier in general for BM of all walks to pursue who and what they want.

      In regards to supportive community. I was NOT saying BW need to wait on a “supportive community”. I was saying YOUNG BLACK GIRLS will most likely choose the lesser of two evils in their minds, and stay in and with Black group think and ways of doing UNTIL they see BY EXAMPLE a community if BW who have made the moves successful for their personal lives. And until then many young BW will continue to stay in the matrix because they feel STUCK.

      Young BW today who want to live as they please and date etc., will need to realize they will not receive the same support from family and friends. So comparing BM and BW is like comparing apples and oranges to an extent that while BW SHOULD do exactly as BM have, they don’t because the consequences young BW have present WITHIN their own families and community, while those same consequences escape BM. And I don’t underestimate the power of family pressure on young women who are already indoctrinated and will receive even more pressure outside family structures. So in essence I’m saying, BW will have to make HARDER choices that will often times mean DIVESTING from family and community altogether to peacefully go about living her best life. Not in every case BUT many cases. And for some YOUNG BW that may be difficult and take more time to see the light.

      BMs only consequence has been dealing with men if other races.

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      • Khadija Nassif
        Dec 11, 2014 @ 12:00:50

        Neecy,

        I’m greatly relieved to hear that I misunderstood what you were saying, and that the issue wasn’t being framed in terms of waiting on support. Praise God! I must admit that I worry about that sort of thing, because AAs have a long-term habit of imposing the same old self-defeating interpretations on new ideas. We’ve done that with every previous new idea/solution AA activists have come up with.

        I’m very, VERY thankful for this era’s greatly increased opportunities for AA women and girls.

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        • Neecy
          Dec 11, 2014 @ 12:08:21

          LOL Khadija I may be crazy but I ain’t that crazy!!

          Yes you are correct though. The world today us truly a BWs oyster if she so chooses to see it that way.

          We gave so many things we can accomplish if we just start “getting it”.

          And it’s frustrating for me, you and others because we see the forest while so many other BW only see the tree in the forest.

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        • Neecy
          Dec 11, 2014 @ 12:27:54

          That is also why I say BW should shut up to family and others about what they want and just do it. Because they’re just gonna hate and deter.

          If BW got to a point of just DOING STUFF and not talking about it, we’d get somewhere.

          My friend Crustal did it! She just got married to a White guy. Her family gave her a hard time growing up because she is a chocolate girl who GOT IT. But her family in Chicago made it hard for her. So she applied to PEPPERDINE university in MALIBU CA to get as far away from that matrix she was in and hasn’t looked back since. She dated as she pleased and did as she pleased when she moved away from family in Chicago. Now she’s happily married.

          So. It can be done. It seems some BW are born with this ability to do what she wants, while others gotta go through some serious stages to get there.

          But the one thing I know she didn’t do, was tell ANYONE of her plans. She just made moves and didn’t give anyone the ability to deter or discourage her because she just DID IT.

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          • DiraD
            Dec 11, 2014 @ 18:39:27

            ITA. I had to learn that lesson. I have observed that often BW are expected to be an open book to their relatives, while everyone (BM and older BW) else gets to keep their cards close to vest, no questions asked. Demanding basic privacy can start are war. I would advise AA BW to learn to lie by omission when dealing with relatives.

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  34. Rae
    Dec 11, 2014 @ 11:56:57

    Neecy your correct. I see the same in my family. I have an uncle who is married to a white woman. He shit talks white men all the time. This summer my mom came to the realization that bm envy white men. It’s not about white people because they continue to give white women a pass. I think both you and khadija are correct.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 11, 2014 @ 12:18:23

      Yes. The battle of WW for BM has always deeply been about showing some kind of “power move” to WM. Because they can’t compete in a infrastructural (is that a word? Lol) scale, they rely on hitting WM closer to home by dating WW.

      That’s about as close to “stickin it to the man” as they can get.

      But WM are getting to a point now where if WW want to go they aren’t going to stop them. They have many other options as well.

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  35. Evia
    Dec 11, 2014 @ 12:46:52

    To any of you who feel I was insulted by something someone said to me here the other day, please know that I do NOT feel insulted/offended by anything that was said to me. LOL! If so, I would have said something. In general, I’m just not sensitive like that. As long as something is said to me in a respectful manner, I don’t feel offended.

    @Neecy, re what you’ve stated above, this is why I’ve stressed so many times the need for AAbw to support some other segments of us even when we sometimes do questionable things. It DOES sometimes depend on what the bw does though. As in other ethnic communities in the U.S., there needs to be those among us in the various subgroups who can signal to other bw in that subgroup the times to support a bw and the times when supporting a situation will do the group more harm than good. Nuances again. For ex., as y’all keep saying, the support of typical AA men is almost 100% no matter how destructive the behavior because AAs are extremely poor when dealing with nuances and are very short-term thinkers. They either blanketly support or don’t support at all. SMH

    A case in point of an AAbw who was mostly left stranded like a solo bird was Daniele Watts. SMH Yes, what she did wasn’t the smartest things to do, but SOME AAbw came out with their biggest clubs to beat her to a pulp! Others offered her NO support whatsoever, left her all alone to fend for herself. Whereas in other cases, some other bw are doing horrendous things to sink the AAbw brand–like having multiple OOW children by different men, and they actually get lots of support and defense from bw or others are hesitant to “judge” them.

    It’s alright with me if y’all disagree with me about this because I came from another era when the bulk of AAbw supported each other– or at least didn’t try to smash each other on Front Street. Some bw did stupid things then too. But those were the days when most of us KNEW we needed each other so we also tended to listen to good advice from each other and gave each other the benefit of the doubt more. I think that because I came from where and when I did, I’ve always believed that I have a certain body of folks at my back. This does make me feel more confident, though in actuality, no one’s at my back. LOL!

    The Daniele Watts situation showed the country that a bw can be singled out as a solo bird and ripped to pieces, so expect more of that to happen. But Kim K showed her naked butt to the world, and y’all can almost count on your fingers the number of ww who trashed her on Front Street –even though some of them consider her to be trash. So ww, in general, KNOW that other ww are going to support them (or not trash them) no matter what–whereas, as you say, many bw feel all alone no matter what they do–whether it’s good or bad.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 11, 2014 @ 13:27:05

      Also that 100% support BM receive is also going to be the nail in the coffin fir them and the Blk community. Because it’s not making them as a group any better. The more support and excuses they receive for bad behavior, the more it actually hurts them and the black community.

      Because people are getting fed up with BM getting support for bad behavior then crying racism.

      If BW didn’t exercise discernment we will also dig ourselves further.

      I’ll support BW and give benefit of doubt in MOST situations. But when I find out you blatantly lied all bets are off! Especially if I feel your lying will hurt other BW in real situations of police misconduct and racism.

      Having sex in a car in broad daylight in an upscale community where lots of mothers and families hang out will have people calling the police. That has nothing to do with race.

      OVERALL though I do think BW can be more supportive of each other in situations where the BW needs the benefit of the doubt. Because we all know, no one else will be as willing to give her that before the facts are presented.

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    • DiraD
      Dec 11, 2014 @ 18:31:18

      The only misunderstanding that took place was my reading comprehension. I apologize for any unnecessary drama precipitated from my error.

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  36. Neecy
    Dec 11, 2014 @ 13:10:45

    Danielle Watts initially received a great deal of support from BW in the IR arena. Of course BW in the matrix berated her.

    But it wasn’t until the story unfolded that she flat out LIED about what happened that people got on her case and backed away. I know for a fact BW who support IR were infuriated when the story first hit. But THEN she lied and made everyone sticking up for her look stupid.

    In fact, SURPRISINGLY the NAACP or some other Black org had taken up to speak out against what happened to her. Then once photos surfaced of her and her boyfriend looking to be having sex she went on TV that’s when people became upset, because her story was unfolding to be a lie.

    I Can’t support a BW who blatantly lied about what happened. And what happens in cases like Danielle is the next time a BW is truly experiencing police misconduct and racism, no one will take her seriously.

    So nope I can’t support the likes of Danielle Watts because she LIED. I’m not even so upset about her actions, yeah it was tacky but it was her LYING that turned people off.

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    • Evia
      Dec 11, 2014 @ 14:47:15

      Neecy, it does NOT matter that she lied. And I’m not even certain that she did lie. But she may have. But if she lied, WHY would a bw in that type of circumstance lie? It might be for the same reason that some women will have sex with a man and then claim that he raped them. However I know that for some folks who may be Christians or for those who engage in binary thinking, lying is always bad and telling the truth is always good.

      Personallt, whether she lied is NOT my point. I believe that ALL or 99.999% of people lie sometimes. If your support of me is only up to the point that you encounter one of my flaws, then that is not real support. Do you think that typical whites don’t know that the Ferguson cop lied. They do NOT care because they know that what’s at stake in the LONG run is much more important to them than the fact that he lied. And frankly speaking, claiming that her lie is going to make it more difficult for whites to believe the next black person is in many ways a convenient copout. White people don’t believe blacks who accuse cops of racism because they generally do not WANT to believe that. It is NOT in their best interests to believe those types of accusations. So, even if all blacks are honest 100% of the time, white racist cops are still going to be given every benefit of the doubt and handled very leniently. Let’s not forget that plenty of white women lie all the time about racial situations and they are believed by the vast majority of white people or given the benefit of the doubt. The overwhelming most of whites definitely know that it is in their best interests almost all the time to believe each other, and support each other. And virtually all other groups are the very same way.

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      • Elle (@celleblossom)
        Dec 11, 2014 @ 16:11:34

        I agree.Someone has to dissect black women’s non beneficial belief in playing fair and their stupidly choosing to only support perfect black girls.
        I judge EVERYONE more harshly than I judge black women.

        NO I do not support stupidity.Or acts of public crazy.Crime etc
        However,I do support black women being given slaps on the wrist, winning,being able to bounce back and having an overall easier time at life even after mistakes/mishaps/foolishness whatever.Why wouldn’t I be?

        the strange thing is that so many black women seem more ready to basically throw around the damaged beyond repair thing/unworthy of our support when dealing with black women who make mistakes.
        They don’t take this hardnosed stance when dealing with other people in general.
        Then wonder why they can never get anyone to cut them some slack.

        We need to stop making such a big deal out of every indiscretion some black woman makes.It can be a slippery slope but passes should be given sometimes,

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        • Neecy
          Dec 11, 2014 @ 16:21:24

          I agree.Someone has to dissect black women’s non beneficial belief in playing fair and their stupidly choosing to only support perfect black girls.

          EXCUSE ME YOU ARE OUT OF LINE!

          my patience with this holier than thou “im right and this is the way it is and should be and how yall should be acting and thinking” attitude some of y’all are taking has reached it’s boiling point and I’m done!

          Do not ever refer to anyone’s opinions on THIS BLOG as STUPID.

          WHO DO SOME OF YOU THINK YOU ARE!?

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          • Elle (@celleblossom)
            Dec 11, 2014 @ 16:49:33

            Excuse me, but I was not talking about you or anyone on this blog.
            I am not here to harass or belittle people.At least that was not my intent.
            Sorry if you were offended.

            I was speaking very generally.The issue of black women throwing other black women under the bus because “well,she was wrong” is an issue I speak on on twitter all the time.It’s an issue we typed about going waaay back to Gina’s WAOD PBGV post. I was agreeing with Evia’s general statement but not calling you stupid.I do believe that some black women’s “let’s all hold everyone to the same standard and be fair” or the “She deserved this harsh punishment & judgement because she did….so I join in on hating her with everyone else in the name of “fairness” ” belief to be STUPID because other people are NOT operating this way.Other people are very unfair and excuse all kinds of crap from people of their group when they are DEADLY WRONG.

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            • Neecy
              Dec 11, 2014 @ 17:08:53

              Ok I guess I am conFROOSED on how this discussion even got here!. I made a statement about BW not being supported for being the perfect victim and next thing I know I am being run down by comments that *SUGGEST* that because Danielle Watts wasn’t supported that BW are foolishly acting against thier own best interests.

              HUH?

              I get it. Yeah BW need to be a lot more understanding and willing to give each other the benefit of the doubt. but that will not be EVERY CASE. In some instances DISCERNMENT is what some of us will use to say whether we support someone or some foolishness.

              And truly if all White people played by the rules you guys are claiming they do, Blacks wouldn’t have much of a pot to piss in in this country. Since we have no infrastructres of our own and general power to make the decision that keep this society turning, I am gonna wadger that if Whites were all really working from that standpoint, we’d all be screwed, there would be EEOC, no civil rights cases, NO justice system whatsoever and White people would never go to jail, never lose thier jobs, never get fired among all other things.

              I, NEECY aint supporting foolishness. I will do my best to always give BW the benefit of the doubt because I am aware no one else is going to. I will put my support behind the BW who truly need it.

              But i will not stand by foolishness. Danielle Watts case, story or whatever you wanna call it is a bunch of UNECESSARY foolishness IMO for me to be concerned with.

              Sowwwy!

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              • Neecy
                Dec 11, 2014 @ 17:19:59

                Danielle Watts case, story or whatever you wanna call it is a bunch of UNECESSARY foolishness IMO for me to be concerned with.

                1) She claimed the police harrassed her because she was BLACK and they assumed she was a prostitute.

                NO. Residents called the cops because she and her B/f were sitting in their car halfway and not just making out but appearing to be having sex. THERE ARE PICS showing this.

                2) She claimed the poilce gavce her a hard time.

                NO. This was ONLY after she refused to show the officer her I.D when he asked for it. Instead of her realizing we are already in a hostile police climate these days, she could have handed him her I.D and avoided being cuffed (there is actual video footage on the interaction of her and the police officer. and I am still waiting on the police misconduct and mistreatment).

                After she argued and refused to show the police her I.D they put her in cuffs. She stod there crying and screaming about “her rights” but didnt think about the fact that sitting openly in a car looking to be having sex with your MAN, is also violating the rights of the residents in that area who may also have children who do not need to see all that.

                So in essence. This silly woman, decided to claim she was racially profiled and mistreated by the police for “kissing” on her b/f, when video and pics show otherwise and show the officer was actually DOING HIS JOB by responding to a lewd conduct call and asked her and her b/f for I.D.

                3) She went on TV lying and saying her and her b/f were not doing anything but kissing and that the officers were engaging in misconduct. Well after that, photos and recording and videos popped up showing OTHERWISE.

                Uhm. NO. I don’;t have time to be fighting for nonsense like that!

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      • Neecy
        Dec 11, 2014 @ 16:16:59

        Well Evia.

        All I can say is this. I don’t care about White people supporting the liars in their group.

        Danielle Watts is not a BW I’m standing behind. YOU and others can do that if you choose. I’m not supporting any ole BW just because White people do it.

        White people are in a position to pretty much do anything they damn well choose because they run this PLACE and have no others to answer to at the end of the day. So they are in a much better position to support their crooks and liars and still THRIVE because they RUN THE JOINT.

        So. I’m not going to explain why I chose to not support the likes of Daniellr Watts because that’s what I as a grown woman choose.

        You can choose otherwise.

        I will pick and choose my battles accordingly. And Danielle Watts is not a “battle” I’m choosing to fight for.

        And that’s all I have to say on the matter.

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        • Elle (@celleblossom)
          Dec 11, 2014 @ 17:03:10

          would like to point out the obvious.There’s a difference in not supporting someone in their foolishness and actively seeking that a person is “thrown under the jail” and sent to the gallows as a result of their crime /infraction etc. Not accusing you or anyone here of doing this.

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  37. Elle (@celleblossom)
    Dec 11, 2014 @ 15:53:49

    My view of this post and also of the last post was black women preaching doom and gloom.Being pessimistic. I guess I was wrong.

    black women who want to strive can go on their own little crusade in life to “transcend” race and gender.What I mean by this is not pretending that race color and gender does not matter and not joining our haters but simply understand that
    black women can

    1. find ways to use certain stereotypes (which are not all bad btw) about black women to their benefit while remaining dignified.It is possible I’ve done it.
    There are negative stereotypes associated with other groups of women,even Asian women,use these to your advantage.

    2.Realize that there are population changes happening all over the world which are creating shifts in certain attitudes.There are shifts in attitude being made amongst a lot of people who used to and currently thrive and do well.Some NEGATIVE shifts and some positive shifts.These changes in attitude may prove as a window of opportunity for black women who are mindful in the near future.
    Off the top of my head I can think of several examples where certain women are ,in a very mainstream public way, embracing ideas that can prove self destructive in the future if they don’t stop.This may provide a window of opportunity for some black women in the marriage arena

    3.Understand that some things are more important than race, gender, society standards of beauty etc, to even the biggest bigot on the planet.Things such as their family, livelihood,ego etc.I’ve spoken on the strange bedfellows I’ve made and how they became some of my most ardent supporters/defenders at the job and did heavy lifting for me.Again without sacrificing my personal self respect or further damaging the image of black women collectively. For this to happen you have to know your value.See certain NEEDS that people have and fill it. Some people will reciprocate “off GP” http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Off+GP
    Some people reciprocate because they want you on the team and see your value.
    Others you put in situations where they have no choice but to reciprocate.

    4.Be in the drivers seat,There are certain things that black women can do to shake things up and make others feel constantly on edge and frantic like they need to prove their worth and that their not the stereotype of their race,religion etc It doesn’t take being mean rude or nasty to anyone to do this either.This is a position of power and a lot of it is all mental. There are ways you can turn the tables on folks but to do this you have to be watchful and mindful of certain things about people.It takes some discernment. It’s a breath of fresh air to have people who may even be above you educationally,financially etc. feel as though they have to prove themselves to you. We do NOT always have to be the one making concessions.

    In summary,life isn’t fair.People are not fair.The system is not fair.i see the disparities as well.But for the women who already have it all together but are still stereotyped and not treated well there are ways that you can turn things around. Even when dealing with bigots.As Khadija said,we have many more opportunities than our foremothers had.You do not always have to just roll with the punches.There are ways that you can punch back and make fools out of your enemies. This applies with jobs,dating,marriage and everything else.

    “Faint not.”

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    • Noni
      Dec 13, 2014 @ 05:02:58

      Elle, I wish you could elaborate more on your points! I find them very interesting and would like to learn more.
      “1. find ways to use certain stereotypes…”

      What stereotypes? How and in what way?

      “2.Realize that there are population changes happening all over the world which are creating shifts in certain attitudes.There are shifts in attitude being made amongst a lot of people who used to and currently thrive and do well.Some NEGATIVE shifts and some positive shifts.These changes in attitude may prove as a window of opportunity for black women who are mindful in the near future.
      Off the top of my head I can think of several examples where certain women are ,in a very mainstream public way, embracing ideas that can prove self destructive in the future if they don’t stop.This may provide a window of opportunity for some black women in the marriage arena”

      Mindful in what way? Can you give examples?

      “4.Be in the drivers seat,There are certain things that black women can do to shake things up and make others feel constantly on edge and frantic like they need to prove their worth and that their not the stereotype of their race,religion etc It doesn’t take being mean rude or nasty to anyone to do this either.This is a position of power and a lot of it is all mental. There are ways you can turn the tables on folks but to do this you have to be watchful and mindful of certain things about people.It takes some discernment. It’s a breath of fresh air to have people who may even be above you educationally,financially etc. feel as though they have to prove themselves to you. We do NOT always have to be the one making concessions.”

      What are the things black women can do? Can you give examples? How to turn the tables?

      Basically, I want to know more about what you mean! 🙂

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      • Elle (@celleblossom)
        Dec 13, 2014 @ 11:56:56

        Noni I can give several examples but honestly I do not want to say everything in such an open forum.There are people dedicated to keeping black women down and I don’t want them to know all the avenues of escape that we have.Which is why I was vague to begin with.

        I advise you to join Evia’s group which is for pay.I am not a part of the group or groups.However,if I’m not mistaken, Evia and her groups discuss certain things such as what I described? I plan to donate this holiday season.Actually before or after the 1st.

        I will give some examples for my second point.
        Here is one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPD0L0M7rtA

        Also I have read that due to the increase in Asian population here many more Asian women are going for Asian men.Some of these women have amnesia about certain things in that they did not have the experiences with Asian men that their mothers and grandmothers had which led to the explosion in Asian women/White man marriages in the first place.Some of these women are publicly using race loyalist language and are now coming off as sister soldiers.Some white men have taken notice and feel all used.Some Asian men have noticed this but are now uninterested in Asian women due to years of their “disloyalty”.Use this to your advantage.

        China has now surpassed U.S.A as number one economy.Very business minded people.Lots of dealings and marriages in Africa and India and they are always looking to expand their tent.Use this to your advantage.

        There are examples where black people are preferred to others in some places here in America and abroad.Use this to your advantage.So many business,marriage opportunities as a result.Just a matter of being in position to take advantage of certain things.

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        • Noni
          Dec 14, 2014 @ 05:51:00

          Thank you so much Elle! I understand.
          There are so many who just want us to be on the bottom so they will look better, ugh.
          Will check it out! Thanks again! 🙂

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  38. Evia
    Dec 11, 2014 @ 17:23:28

    @ Neecy, re:

    Danielle Watts is not a BW I’m standing behind. YOU and others can do that if you choose. . I’m not supporting any ole BW just because White people do it.

    I’m not trying to convince you to support Daniele Watts. BTW, I don’t think she was just “any ole bw.” The point though is not whether YOU or I support Daniele Watts. This is not about us PERSONALLY. I was using her case to HIGHLIGHT a pattern of behaviorthat greatly weakens AAbw in EVERY arena. Despite all the blasting of AAbm for this and that, THE most pressing issues that AAbw face is lack of support from EACH OTHER. There are numerous other situations that are similar to Daniele’s situation.

    And I thought we were discussing ISSUES and ideas here, as in “Great minds discuss ideas.” LOL.

    From my earliest days of blogging, I’ve blogged about the need for bw to support each other, nonstop. There are some times that bw’s support of each other sinks the group, but in most other cases, the support of each other would lift ALL of our boats. Nothing new here in what I’m saying.

    Many AAbw these days display a pattern of hunting and pecking for reasons NOT to support each other, whereas in other groups I’ve mingled in (among people of a certain class, of course), those folks hunt and peck for reasons to really SUPPORT each other. The groups I’ve mingled in are middle class whites, various African ethnic groups, some Arabs and Iranians. The Ferguson cop is a glaring case in point in which numerous whites bent over backwards to find reasons why he should get their support. But that’s the usual response. People in most groups are going to bend over backwards and twist themselves into pretzels if necessary to support others in their tribe ESPECIALLY when those individuals have not done anything to harm others in THEIR own group.

    On the IR front, I hope that bw don’t marry into other groups thinking that their non-black spouse is going to go against his group to stick up for his black wife. That rarely happens, and I respect that because that’s where a big chunk of a man’s strength comes from: His Tribe. But that’s not just the case with IRs, that’s usually the case even in intercultural marriages also. I’ve been in both types. I’ve always positioned myself so that my husbands didn’t need to choose between me or his tribe. I already knew I’d lose that one. But if he had chosen me, I would have liked that for maybe a few moments, but would have considered him a big fool.

    The very fact that we’re even having this discussion in great detail points to the key reason WHY AABw don’t have any support worth speaking of from each other. It’s become virtually an alien idea among most new school AAs.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 11, 2014 @ 17:50:50

      So let me just ask straight out Evia.

      Are you asking BW to support ANY and ALL BW despite the actual situation??

      I just need to be clear on this.

      Also. I agree that BW need to support each other. Obviously the lack of support we give each other contributes to being in the position we are in collectivley. But I also agree that a BW also has the right to not want to support certain BW on a case by case basis.

      While I get that other groups do it, those other groups have a lot more working in thier favor to where they can afford to do those things. In the case of BM and Black people supporting any and every BM no matter what – the chickens are coming to roost!

      The only people who are truly going to suffer for that are BLACK MALES and the Black community. Society is starting to see what Black people are doing and the hypocrisy and very soon very little “guilt” or leeway will be dished out to BM. in fact, the fact that all these cases are being thrown out by a grand jury is one way I believe people are saying ENOUGH is ENOUGH and to “get your shit together Black man”.

      I don’t want BW to go that route. I want BW to be respected for standing behind BW and situations that truly need our support and efforts. not silly foolishness like Danielle Watts case. All that does is take our credibility away as a group.

      You see. Black people just don’t have enough power to get away with all the things that Whites do. That is just the facts. We have no real infrastructures to compete on a global or even national level. At the end of the day, everything we get and have is because some Nice White people decided to “play fair” and share a piece of that pie with us. Even if its a crumb, its still something we wouldn’t have if we were left to our current own devices. It is what it is.

      When you have POWER, you have the ability to do things that others without it, can’t do. And in our case, White people and Asians and others with some power and infrastructure can stand behind the goons of thier race and still keep thriving.

      I htink the proof is in the pudding that this doesn’t work so well with African Americans.

      So once again apples and oranges.

      BW need to support and uplift each other. But not by any means necessary because when the chips fall (and they will) the dominant society will use that against us because “LIFE AINT FAIR” and THEY CAN.

      In the case of Danielle watts for example (since you were the one who used her as an example initially). many BW did actually support her. Especially IR Black women who automaticaly felt her pain when she stated her and her White b/f were targets of IR profiling by people who were offeneded at seeing them in an affectionate situation. BW did stand behind her and gave her the benefit of the doubt – INCLUDING ME, as I was infuriated once again a BW had to go through this.

      In fact, the story went viral and even got the attentoin of CNN beause people were so up in arms about it.

      AND THEN, After seeing the FACTS of the case that could not be denied (Pics, video and recoding of the police interaction and call), many BW had to step back and say “UHMKAY BOO BOO you had us thinking one thing when in actuality it was another thing” (based on the actual PROOF of pics and vids).

      Around the same time a woman (homeless Black woman) by the name of Marlene Pickette had a case against the CHP for being BRUTALLY beaten upon her head by an officer (i ran a story on this). This woman could barely get any press. So much so her lawyer kept calling news press conferences to keep the story and her name alive for justice.

      Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Danielle Watts story is gaining national attention. And then everyone was upset rightfuly so after seeing that she had pretty much lied about almost everything.

      So what i am saying is, some BW will blindly conitnue to support BW who truly should not be supported no matter the facts. Others will first support the BW and then when the facts come out will choose to remove support if the FACTS show there was no real injustice.

      I will always think FIRST that a BW is in the right. but if the facts prove otherwise, then it is what it is and I cannot risk my credibility or the credibility of the collective by standing behind nonsense.

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    • neurochick
      Dec 12, 2014 @ 13:10:52

      @Evia:
      On the IR front, I hope that bw don’t marry into other groups thinking that their non-black spouse is going to go against his group to stick up for his black wife. That rarely happens, and I respect that because that’s where a big chunk of a man’s strength comes from: His Tribe. But that’s not just the case with IRs, that’s usually the case even in intercultural marriages also. I’ve been in both types. I’ve always positioned myself so that my husbands didn’t need to choose between me or his tribe. I already knew I’d lose that one. But if he had chosen me, I would have liked that for maybe a few moments, but would have considered him a big fool.

      I think this is an interesting comment and serious food for thought.

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  39. DiraD
    Dec 11, 2014 @ 18:52:44

    I am so annoyed with the official protest call of Zeta Phi Beta. I see it as simply more muling and BM identification. Also, none of the Black fraternities have made an official stance or call to protest (please correct me if I am wrong). If the BM don’t care enough to stand up, why should the BW? Why paint a target on their backs? Why other themselves?

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  40. Olu
    Dec 11, 2014 @ 18:58:07

    Neecy, thanks for maintaining this engaging conversation. I hold a perspective on the Danielle Watts issue similar to Evia and Elle’s. The problem as I see it that many people attacked Danielle Watts not just because she lied (how many BM have lied and did horrible things and still were not subjected to any censure from black people), but because she’s with a WM. I will have to give her a pass because I realize that BW who are going in on her are one again communicating that a BW who is deviating from the norm will denied ongoing support from other BW, even though the same BW will give other BW who are making horrible life choices (mostly with BM) and destructive BM a pass. That sends a clear MESSAGE to other BW that dating/marrying a WM or other non-BM or doing anything side of the norm of “acceptable BW mamming/muling/self-sacrificing/self-sabotaging/suffering” behavior for BW will have you left out in the cold by the black female collective. Therefore, other BW who are getting these subtle (or not so subtle) messages will be more hesitant to chart their own progressive life paths. Honestly, do you think that if a BM was caught doing that with a WW in a car that black people would have been focused on fact that he was doing vulgar stuff? No, they NEVER are focused on the BM’s wrongs; they would have maintained it was a racial issue and thrown their weight behind defending him. More importantly, OTHER BM would have ignored the lewd behavior to focus on the “racism” of trying to deny a BM access to WW because it is in their interest to look at it from this angle. Their lax attitude toward the indiscretion would be motivated by the fact that their image benefits from a BM being paired with a WW, negative circumstances aside. Black women tend to not see this bigger picture. In fact, I think a lot of BW choose to ignore the bigger picture intentionally (because God knows they know how to stretch their thinking when it comes to BM) because they want other BW to fall in line. Some BW think that progressive BW are a threat to the resurrection of the American black community and AA “black love.”

    Btw, I don’t agree that BM throwing their weight behind other dysfunctional BM is hurting them too much, or hurting them equally across issues. Because black women have NOT been doing that and they are left out in the cold, even by other BM. Even if NO ONE else takes BM seriously (and they already don’t not only because of BM’s behavior, but that BM collectively are failures), they will always have the support of other BM and foolish BW. If BW have been doing the “right” thing, then why are BW collectively the most unsupported group ever? It goes back to why other people don’t take up BW’s causes…because BW don’t take up their own causes and no one is going to help you more than you help yourself. If BW are not even giving another BW sympathy or the benefit of the doubt or room to make mistakes, why would anyone else give OTHER BW in the SAME or DIFFERENT situations that benefit of the doubt? It is all connected. BW need to do things differently to get different results.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 11, 2014 @ 19:45:33

      @ OLU

      I guess basically this is going to have to be a simple case of agree to disagree with me.

      I AGREE that BW have to support and uplift each other.

      I disagree that BW should stand behind every BW in a troubling situation if the facts presented just don’t add up to anything more than a silly situation.

      Sorry I won’t do that. Other BW have the right to do that if they wish. This has nothing to do with me not caring about BW or not wanting to support BW. I choose to support the BW who I feel need it and which cases warrant it. That’s just how I feel and sorry i cannot agree to standing by every BW for dysfuncitonal behavior.

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  41. Evia
    Dec 11, 2014 @ 19:34:16

    @Neecy. re:

    Are you asking BW to support ANY and ALL BW despite the actual situation??

    No, and I’m simply sharing my views. But let’s say AAbw want to operate similarly to other groups (and I do believe in choosing the best practices of other groups to incorporate into my life since they also copy from us), then we should be poised to support each other, if at all possible. Definitely not in ALL cases. That would be crazy. Support comes in many ways. In some cases, silence is the best support. In other groups, MOST people in those groups have to be given a really strong, convincing, compelling reason not to support each other. like tell them that the person is a child molester, cannibal, or a serial killer, or will cause them to lose all their money forever, (lol) or that they will all die a long, painful death, etc.The reason has to be one that will clearly have a serious impact on their group on a long lasting basis.

    Let’s face it. Lots of AAs have been “altered.” It goes against self-preservation to not want to be a part of a supportive group and do what’s necessary to have that. It’s common for even young kids to want to belong to the group for protection, support, camaraderie, or LONGEVITY.

    While I get that other groups do it, those other groups have a lot more working in thier favor to where they can afford to do those things.

    No, it’s just the opposite. Other groups generally KNOW they MUST support each other and they don’t see it as a burden. It’s just the way they live their lives. They know they don’t have a choice and this is embedded into them to the point that they don’t even know they do it. They think this is just normal.

    The MOST harmful thing that AAbw do is that they listen to and support/defend NON-RECIPROCATING black males and bw of that same type. If the vast majority of AAbw didn’t do that ONE thing, a large portion of AAbw (these days) would be able to live their lives similarly to the way other women do. I KNOW this to be true because that’s how I’ve lived my life and I’m an average AAbw.

    Re Daniele Watts, I believed she was racially profiled as being a black prostitute when in actuality, she was simply a woman making out with her man in a car. So she reacted like a person who’d been racially profiled. No matter how you look at it, she was racially profiled while she was engaging in a sexual act in public. Engaging in a sexual act in public is not uncommon. No one needs to agree with me but I think she did a service to every American by bringing nationwide attention to what some legal scholars have emphatically called police abuse of power by her nearly getting arrested for refusing to show her ID when she wasn’t committing a crime. What exactly was the crime? Having sex in public? Will the police always come and arrest/harass ANYONE who is suspected of having sex in public?

    Anyway, maybe we should ALL(whites, blacks, everybody) be required to walk around with our IDs hanging in plain sight just in case someone “thinks” we’re committing a crime. It might come to that.

    However, NO AAbw reading this should ever refuse to show ID to the police at any time since you KNOW now that you won’t have real support if you refuse. That the moral of the Daniele Watts story.

    And many, many, many people lie about sexual indiscretions–even the president of the United States. LOl

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    • Neecy
      Dec 11, 2014 @ 20:04:46

      Again. I disagree.

      In FACT, Whites for the most part tend to be the one group of people willing to police thier own and call out dysfunction and PUNISH it. Most other groups don’t do this.

      In fact, this is why everyone comes to and wants to come to Western countries from their own homelands. Becauae they are more likely to get a fair shake on the White man’s land than their own.

      That is why once America leaves the hands of Whites and into other ethnic groups, Black people better strap on their seat belts because the party will be over.

      While obviously White people are operating in a tribe sense to stay on top, there are just as many who are willing to police their own and call them out. So much so that it has given minorities like Blacks an ability to live and function better in Western nations than anywhere else.

      So i do not agree that most Whites always stand behind thier dysfuncitonal in all cases. If so, Blacks and no other groups would get anything in western societies.

      Also, regarding Danielle. We’ll just have to disagree completely. The cops got called because she was sitting outside a car on top of her b/f looking to be having sex. PERIOD. She was not racially profiled by the cops. The cops responded to a LEWD CALL by a number of residents who saw the action and were disturbed.

      And yes the cop has the right to ask for ID if he feels osmeone is breaking the law. LEWD conduct is breaking the law. If it weren’t the police would have never been called or even come.

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  42. Khadija Nassif
    Dec 11, 2014 @ 19:49:21

    Hmmm, the conversation has taken an interesting turn. I feel that every individual AA woman has to make her own call about who and what she’s going to spend her personal credibility on.

    Personally, I refuse to spend my credibility on the Danielle Watts-type of fact pattern (as lawyers call such things). I don’t wait for a “perfect” BW victim when deciding whether or not to lend my personal support to another BW’s situation. I decide based on whether or not the situation is something that I’m willing to stake my personal credibility on. I try to be very careful about what I associate and affiliate my personal “brand” with.

    As I said earlier, I feel that there’s no AA “team” and no AA “us.” What does exist is my good name and my credibility as an individual. I’m not going to spend my good name or credibility on just anything or anybody.

    I noticed in the Danielle Watts case that a lot of IR-BW automatically jumped on Ms. Watts’ bandwagon in support of her. Meanwhile a lot of mammy mule, Sista Soldier automatically jumped to be on a bandwagon against Ms. Watts. And these decisions were made before any details came out about that incident.

    I stayed neutral until more information came out about exactly what happened during that incident. Once I saw the photographic proof of her public lewd behavior, I was done with her. I’m not going to spend my personal credibility in support of that type of sordid and squalid behavior. I don’t want my name, my face, my reputation, or my personal “brand” associated in any way with a woman who screws in public.

    Also, that sort of behavior resonates differently for men* than it does for women—especially for those women who want to maintain a ladylike reputation and image. [That is, unless that male is engaging in homosexual lewd conduct—George Michael, or lewd conduct that is widely perceived as perverted, like Pee-wee Herman.]

    Reasonable minds can differ. Everybody has to draw the line for themselves.

    I’ve supported some BW who I feel have made grave errors in judgment that played a major part in the harm they suffered. For one example, I supported (and still support) Desiree Washington in her rape case against Mike Tyson. I would still have supported her if she had been raped by a WM or other nonblack man. I feel that she made a horrible error in judgment by going to Tyson’s (or any other man’s) hotel room.

    It’s extremely dangerous for a teenage girl or woman to go to a man’s hotel room if she doesn’t intend to “put out.” I’m NOT at all saying that she therefore “deserved” to be raped (there’s no such thing). I’m simply saying that she made a grave error in judgment and put herself in danger of being raped by going to his hotel room. In her case, I chalked that up to youth and a lack of life experience.

    [To be clear: there is never any “justification” for rape. There is never any justification for physically overpowering somebody else’s statement of “no” to sex. There is also never any justification for emotionally overpowering somebody else’s statement of “no” to sex by making threats of harm, etc. There is also never any justification for taking sexual advantage of somebody else’s inability to consent to sex (due to being drunk, high, semi-conscious, or unconscious).]

    Anyhoo, I feel that reasonable minds can differ on this particular issue; everybody has to decide who and what they’ll give their personal support to; and that it’s probably best to assess incidents on a case-by-case basis.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 11, 2014 @ 19:55:28

      THANK YOU Khadija,

      This is exactly where I stand. And yes I was one of the BW who initially jumped on board to support Danielle and was dissapointed afterwards when the FACTS came out.

      I agree. Every individual BW has a right to decide for herself if she is willing to risk her credibility in support of certain BW and certain situations.

      I aint one of them, if the story proves to be a bunch of unecessary nonsense IMO. There are bigger things BW need to be fighting for and standing behind each other for than Danielle Wattsesqe cases.

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  43. Lynn
    Dec 11, 2014 @ 20:09:14

    I’m kinda sad to see the conversation take this turn and get hung up on one incident. I think we should all keep in mind that we don’t have to agree on all issues to support our overall collective uplift. There are many issues and situations we can lend our support to. If one cause is not for you then find another.
    However, I will weigh in on this the Dannielle Watts case. rhetorical question: what kind of woman is USUALLY found to be screwing/ having sex in public? PROSTITUTES! Therefore I PERSONALLY feel she was profiled. Her lewd behavior profiled her as a prostitute! Therefore I did not and will never support her on this issue. ABC Black people want to excuse any and all repercussions of their crass behaviors and other issues on racism. I’m not saying DW is an ABC BW; I don’t know her. But I give the sideeye to any BW who would screw in public. Again, just my personal opinion.

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    • Neecy
      Dec 11, 2014 @ 20:15:49

      COMPLTELY AGREE Lynn.

      And i can tell you this. If i saw someone out in front of my home or resident doing what they were doing, I’d too call the cops. I don’t care if its a WW/BM, WM/WW, BW/BW whoever – im calling the cops beause I am not going to get into a confrontation with them by telling them to stop.

      If people do not want to respect themselves FINE, but they need to understand we do not live in a vaccuuum and they have no right to just do what they want in way of sex and sexual conduct in public. That is because in resident areas, there are children. Maybe some parents do not want thier children exposed to that.

      If we get on each others case about supporting any BW in any case, wouldn’t that be similar to crabs in a barrell mentaity? That’s my question. How is it any different?

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  44. Evia
    Dec 11, 2014 @ 20:33:21

    Neecy, from all I’ve seen, whites almost fully support what gives them an advantage–whatever that is. And if they don’t support it, they remain silent. I don’t view whites as distancing themselves from the rotten things they do–unless they’re forced or pressed in some way. So they support their own when it’s in their best interests to do so.

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  45. Evia
    Dec 11, 2014 @ 20:52:58

    Re Daniele and similar bw who lie and engage in sexual indiscretions, I will support them as long as they can face the consequences for their actions. She seemed to be willing to go the distance for what she believed in and I admire people like that. I’ve certainly done a few -ahem-“deeds” (lol) in my life and had folks step out to support me during the time that we had a “WE.” So I pay it forward and always will do that to the utmost best that I can.

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  46. bubblychie27
    Dec 12, 2014 @ 06:51:59

    Reblogged this on Black Girl With An Attitude .

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  47. Shaylah
    Dec 13, 2014 @ 14:17:02

    To the young Black women reading this, please DIVEST, DIVEST, DIVEST from the black community if you are still in it. A friend mine was saying her daughter was going to march. I told her if she should not go. If she must go , to stay in the back because if police start shooting she will be caught in the line of fire. It seems to me that some how Black women have to detach themselves period. I mean most of us and I am in my 40’s seem to just see Black women give when they can not afford it. Time and money. 2015 is literally 18 days away and my prayer to the young and old alike black women to please not just give a f*** about black men. I mean we can growl and snarl at white men without hesitation. Most of the white men who may turn out to be your boss. Then when black men spew their disdain, we dissect to the end of time. I will be going the doctor to get myself checked out. It feel so d*** good to really look out for myself. I am not saying we should be selfish and not help anyone because Neecy, Evia, Khadija and countless have open their hearts up to the black women who have an ear. I always point black women to the blog because it has so much to offer. I like to know that I least planted the seed. They have to do the rest.
    2015 GREATER THINGS WILL BE SEEN. I just feel it in bones because whom the son is free in deed. I TALK TO 10 BLACK GIRLS AND WOMEN AND JUST SHARE THE BLOG. Some will get others won’t but I least will make the effort to help.

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